Integrated Systems Audit Mandays Duration - IAF Requirements

[glenn0004]

The company that I work for is undergoing a restructure and I have been asked to produce a report relating to our commitment to ISO 9001 & 14001 with respect to time spent auditing and supporting external surveillance audits. (how this will /could change after the restructure)
I'm aware of the IAF gudelines with respect to madays and headcount. However what I'm unclear on is their application when one or more system is audited as an integrated system. IAF guidelines state that there can be a decrease in mandays when auditing an IMS. However, a 9001 survelliance audit across 1500 employees (not with standing multisites) would be approx 5 days (1/3rd of 14 days). A low risk 14001 survelliance audit across 1500 employees (not with standing multisites) would be approx 4 days (1/3rd of 12 days) this could equal 9 days so what can we expect as the audit duration for a survelliance audit for a 9001 & 14001 based IMS.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Re: IAF Integrated Systems Audit Mandays Duration Requirements

The answer to your question would depend on the amount of integration of the management systems and the CB audit team's ability, composition and competence to perform adequate integrated management system audits.

From your post, it was not clear if you are familiar with the recently released IAF Mandatory Document for the Application of ISO/IEC 17021 for Audits of Integrated Management Systems - IAF MD11. Maximum reduction would be 20%.

Also, I believe that you are miscalculating the audit days. Annual surveillance audits are normally [sup]1[/sup]/[sub]3[/sub] (not [sup]2[/sup]/[sub]3[/sub]) of the initial audit duration.

 

[glenn0004]

Re: IAF Integrated Systems Audit Mandays Duration Requirements

Thank you very much for the info and link - a slap on the hand for myself for the error in applying the 2/3rds factor used for recertification.
In addition I have noted that for multi-sites the headcount for each site should be used and applied??? As it looks like our current AB calculates the number of days required based roughly on the total headcount of the organisation regardless of which sites are visited, I'm trying to attain the effects of the not including all locations within our scope of registration. If sites are emitted, should the headcount be based on employees at the in scope locations or the total headcount (regardless) or...based on the locations being audited. Your help is appreciated.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Re: IAF Integrated Systems Audit Mandays Duration Requirements

As it looks like our current AB calculates the number of days required based roughly on the total headcount of the organisation regardless of which sites are visited, I'm trying to attain the effects of the not including all locations within our scope of registration. If sites are emitted, should the headcount be based on employees at the in scope locations or the total headcount (regardless) or...based on the locations being audited. Your help is appreciated.

What you are referring to as AB (Accreditation Body) should be a CB or CAB (Conformity Assessment Body). Your certification body is totally miscalculating the audit days. According to the IAF MD1 document

5.3.2. The number of man-days per site, including the central office, should be calculated for each site using the most recently published IAF document for the calculation of mandays for the relevant standard.

Do you know if your certification program uses IAF MD1? It seems to me you do, because, apparently not all sites are visited during the annual surveillance cycle, isn't it?

 

[glenn0004]

Re: IAF Integrated Systems Audit Mandays Duration Requirements

Thanks for getting back to me - I'm currently waiting on a reply from our CAB, as to their calculation method.... In past years we (our company) have submitted a schedule for agreement to the CAB of the sites to be visited during each audit with the aim that over 3 years all sites are visited. If IAF MD1 is in effect with our CAB (??) the number of audit days would be controlled by a) the size of the sample to be taken from the in scope locations and b) the number employees at / working from those locations...????? I fear that our CAB has an ad-hoc calculation methodology.

 

[ilkaytrade]

Re: IAF Integrated Systems Audit Mandays Duration Requirements

for QMS 1500 for person normaly 14 manday--- if apply full dicrease %30 (%20 from 7.3 if not+ %10 knowledge and experience of system) = 9,8 man day.

For EMS low risk for 1500 person normaly 12 manday --- if apply full dicrease %20 (%10 knowledge and experience of system+ %10 low risk environmental aspects etc. ) = 9,6 man day

9,8+9,6= 19,4 Manday (till here we apply MD5 rules)

If system is ıntegrated plus apply MD 11 rules. calculatıon of integrability according to MD11 max. dicrease is %20 ----- 19,4 manday will be 15,5 manday....

TOTALLY discrease is from 28 manday to 15,5 Manday.

Regards from TURKEY

İlker ,
Accreditation Mng. of Certification Body