Integrating ISO 14001 & 9001 into OHSAS 18001

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#21
Please let me know if you have any experience with integrating ISO 14001 & 9001 into OHSAS. I have heard about all the positive reasons to do this: save time & money, more efficient auditing, etc. What is the down side of integrating these three management systems?
These standards are kept separate by little more than turf wars fought by two of the three professions. I would argue that quality professionals would love also to improve the quality of health and safety management and the quality of environmental management; not to mention security management!

Organizations already are run by their systems. Of course, we should not add another system or three! Instead we analyze our system to understand it and list its key processes for further analysis/design, documentation, use and improvement.

One benefit of the proliferating system standards is their differences. From these differences we can learn, for example, adopting the risk assessment requirements from 14001 and 18001 to improve risk assessment for preventing nonconformity generally. Other examples would be the wider application of employee consultation requirements of 18001 and the wider deployment of legal and regulatory requirements to the management system.

Perhaps quality professionals are really systems professionals and our colleagues in health, safety, environmental and security are scared of us taking their jobs? :argue:
 
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John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#22
I have just finished co-leading a successful:) effort to integrate 14001 and 18001 into our existing 9001 Quality Management System, now called our Integrated Management System.

I would highly recommend integration because of the overlap of the three systems. Hey - document control is document control is document control...

To integrate, we made most of the updates right in the Quality Manual, and renamed it the Integrated Management Systems Manual. (Our Level 1 document.) As it is an integrated way of doing business, and I want to continue to stress that, we combined in as many areas as possible, including our management reviewss. I did create a few extra Level 2 documents, and then some specific Level 3 work instructions.

For us, the bulk of the work was in analyzing our processes for environmental impacts and health & safety risks.

Going forward, I will be providing 14001 and 18001 content training to our 9001 internal QMS auditors, and 9001 and 18001 content training to a few who had EMS audit training.

We just completed our successful external registration audit for 14001 and 18001, with no non-conformities.:D Just a few "areas of concern" that we have a year to address.

(OK, 18001 wasn't technically a "registration" audit, but that's splitting hairs...)

Ironically, I found out during our registration audit that I have until June 09 to also comply with a european railroad standard. (IRIS - it is basically ISO 9001 with additional requirements.) Well, that's a little job security, I suppose...

'Bye for now!
Congratulations on developing your Combined Management System (to use terminology from ISO 19011). Actually IRIS specifies requirements for a Business Management System. :read: It promises a management system truly integrated with the company's financial controls and plenty of job security!
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#23
Perhaps quality professionals are really systems professionals and our colleagues in health, safety, environmental and security are scared of us taking their jobs? :argue:
You really think that? I'm an EHS professional and I haven't met a quality guy yet that has made me so much as blink.:lol: I learned systems thinking putting together and managing EHS programs for little companies like Lockheed and ITT. You had to do PDCA or risk failure, and failure meant injured/dead people or a damaged environment.

From what I've seen and experienced it is far easier for an EHS professional to transition to Quality than a Quality person to transfer to EHS.....In fact ISO 19011 recommends a more technical and varied background for EMS auditors than it does for QMS folks.........the same would hold true for the Safety auditors.

In fact, I'd venture that very few quality practitioners would actually bet their life and the life of another on the "quality" of their work. I have and I did it a few thousand times. When I inspected the work performed on an aircraft from the day we washed it, disassembled it, and put it back together I knew I was putting my life on the line. As the QA/QC Inspection who signed off aircraft as Safe-For-Flight I was required to participate in the test flight as a crew member. Normally the flight crew consisted of the Maintenance Test Pilot and me........My signature basically said "I trust my work so much that I will take the 1st flights to verify/validate that this sucker really works". I've got over 3,000 hours of 15 minute to 1 hours test flights. After that, looking at charts, graphs amd diagrams really ain't that hard.

I agree with you about the "turf wars", but I'm sure not worried about some old quality professional trying to push me aside........:nope:
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#24
You really think that? I'm an EHS professional and I haven't met a quality guy yet that has made me so much as blink.:lol: I learned systems thinking putting together and managing EHS programs for little companies like Lockheed and ITT. You had to do PDCA or risk failure, and failure meant injured/dead people or a damaged environment.

From what I've seen and experienced it is far easier for an EHS professional to transition to Quality than a Quality person to transfer to EHS.....In fact ISO 19011 recommends a more technical and varied background for EMS auditors than it does for QMS folks.........the same would hold true for the Safety auditors.

In fact, I'd venture that very few quality practitioners would actually bet their life and the life of another on the "quality" of their work. I have and I did it a few thousand times. When I inspected the work performed on an aircraft from the day we washed it, disassembled it, and put it back together I knew I was putting my life on the line. As the QA/QC Inspection who signed off aircraft as Safe-For-Flight I was required to participate in the test flight as a crew member. Normally the flight crew consisted of the Maintenance Test Pilot and me........My signature basically said "I trust my work so much that I will take the 1st flights to verify/validate that this sucker really works". I've got over 3,000 hours of 15 minute to 1 hours test flights. After that, looking at charts, graphs amd diagrams really ain't that hard.

I agree with you about the "turf wars", but I'm sure not worried about some old quality professional trying to push me aside........:nope:

Randy,

Thanks for answering my question. As you suggest quality may be delivered by sorting good product from the bad but surely this approach to "QA/QC" is too expensive for most companies? :yes:

How about relying on product design, process design and process control with just a little inspection of the product (a la 7.5.2)? This is more akin to the result of packing a parachute (first inspected by the jumper hanging beneath it).

Delivering confidence that requirements will be met is QA. Quality controlled by inspection alone is just too expensive. Process control (of design, manufacture and assembly) supported by a process-based management system is a much better investment to be confident that all requirements (including those for preventing pollution and preventing accidents) will be met.

So, what is causing the turf wars if it is not job protection?

John
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#25
This is more akin to the result of packing a parachute (first inspected by the jumper hanging beneath it).
Tell me about it! I have 125 jumps:D and an ejection from a broken airplane:mg:

So, what is causing the turf wars if it is not job protection?
Ignorance.

Oh, by the way, I don't think I've welcomed you here to the Cove. We ran into each other a few times in another internet forum a few years back. Many of the folks here will appreciate your insight, experience and perspective:bigwave:
 
H

Haneen

#26
[FONT=&quot]Hi all,
I did join this forum today :):)
Integration of QHSE (ISO 9001/ISO14001/OHSAS 18001) is to make different things as one ... example: "Erecting a car seat belt in a cars is not an integration of this safety control into the car system because the car engine can be started without fastening the belt, there will be an integration only if car engine can be started unless the belt is on."

I am HSE professional & i did design HS & E integrated management systems (ISO based), what i am trying to do is to integrate QHSE.
Ideas:[/FONT]

  1. [FONT=&quot]The corner stone for HS-MS is the hazard identification (if hazard are not identified their risks will not be assess/eliminated or controlled;[/FONT]
  2. [FONT=&quot]The corner stone for E-MS is the aspect identification (same as 1);[/FONT]
  3. [FONT=&quot]What is the corner stone for QMS? I am supposing it to be processes identification - please correct me if this wrong[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The best way to cover all these basics is to go from processes to aspects to hazards ... example:
Process = production;
Aspect = use of energy;
Hazard = Machineries;
This means the integration should be under the QMS umbrella-- QHSE (as one of the responders mentioned that we can talk about the quality of HS & E).

It is not an easy job to integrate QHSE (but it is very easy to put different stuff within one manual under one policy)

Factors need to be considered before take the integration decision:[/FONT]

  • [FONT=&quot]Nature of business (some ones need very complicate QMS but very simple HSMS or EMS);[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]HSE are law-based whilst QMS based on customer satisfaction;[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]Cost implication (design, implementation & monitoring);[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]Human factor;[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]Change Impact;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If QHSE are properly integrated then it doesn’t matter who is going to be the big boss (HSE or Quality professional) because Q/HS/E will be become one thing & there will be no room for a part of it to be neglected … but I prefer the big boss to be HSE professional –basically- who knows quality.;)[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Regards[/FONT]

Note:
I am not so fluent in English, please expect many English language related issues ... Thanks
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#27
[FONT=&quot]Hi all,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I did join this forum today :):)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Integration of QHSE (ISO 9001/ISO14001/OHSAS 18001) is to make different things as one ... example: "Erecting a car seat belt in a cars is not an integration of this safety control into the car system because the car engine can be started without fastening the belt, there will be an integration only if car engine can be started unless the belt is on."[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I am HSE professional & i did design HS & E integrated management systems (ISO based), what i am trying to do is to integrate QHSE. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ideas:[/FONT]

  1. [FONT=&quot]The corner stone for HS-MS is the hazard identification (if hazard are not identified their risks will not be assess/eliminated or controlled;[/FONT]
  2. [FONT=&quot]The corner stone for E-MS is the aspect identification (same as 1);[/FONT]
  3. [FONT=&quot]What is the corner stone for QMS? I am supposing it to be processes identification - please correct me if this wrong[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The best way to cover all these basics is to go from processes to aspects to hazards ... example:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Process = production;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Aspect = use of energy;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Hazard = Machineries;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This means the integration should be under the QMS umbrella-- QHSE (as one of the responders mentioned that we can talk about the quality of HS & E).[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It is not an easy job to integrate QHSE (but it is very easy to put different stuff within one manual under one policy)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Factors need to be considered before take the integration decision:[/FONT]

  • [FONT=&quot]Nature of business (some ones need very complicate QMS but very simple HSMS or EMS);[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]HSE are law-based whilst QMS based on customer satisfaction;[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]Cost implication (design, implementation & monitoring);[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]Human factor;[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]Change Impact;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If QHSE are properly integrated then it doesn’t matter who is going to be the big boss (HSE or Quality professional) because Q/HS/E will be become one thing & there will be no room for a part of it to be neglected … but I prefer the big boss to be HSE professional –basically- who knows quality.;)[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Regards[/FONT]

Note:
I am not so fluent in English, please expect many English language related issues ... Thanks

You did it perfectly. Begin with the QMS, defien the processes, then add a few more processes to handle the primary E and H&S activities. Then, write whatever procedures you need (I recommend on procedure per process).

Good Luck!
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#28
[FONT=&quot]Hi all,
I did join this forum today :):)
Integration of QHSE (ISO 9001/ISO14001/OHSAS 18001) is to make different things as one ... example: "Erecting a car seat belt in a cars is not an integration of this safety control into the car system because the car engine can be started without fastening the belt, there will be an integration only if car engine can be started unless the belt is on."

I am HSE professional & i did design HS & E integrated management systems (ISO based), what i am trying to do is to integrate QHSE.
Ideas:[/FONT]

  1. [FONT=&quot]The corner stone for HS-MS is the hazard identification (if hazard are not identified their risks will not be assess/eliminated or controlled;[/FONT]
  2. [FONT=&quot]The corner stone for E-MS is the aspect identification (same as 1);[/FONT]
  3. [FONT=&quot]What is the corner stone for QMS? I am supposing it to be processes identification - please correct me if this wrong[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The best way to cover all these basics is to go from processes to aspects to hazards ... example:
Process = production;
Aspect = use of energy;
Hazard = Machineries;
This means the integration should be under the QMS umbrella-- QHSE (as one of the responders mentioned that we can talk about the quality of HS & E).

It is not an easy job to integrate QHSE (but it is very easy to put different stuff within one manual under one policy)

Factors need to be considered before take the integration decision:[/FONT]

  • [FONT=&quot]Nature of business (some ones need very complicate QMS but very simple HSMS or EMS);[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]HSE are law-based whilst QMS based on customer satisfaction;[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]Cost implication (design, implementation & monitoring);[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]Human factor;[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]Change Impact;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If QHSE are properly integrated then it doesn’t matter who is going to be the big boss (HSE or Quality professional) because Q/HS/E will be become one thing & there will be no room for a part of it to be neglected … but I prefer the big boss to be HSE professional –basically- who knows quality.;)[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Regards[/FONT]

Note:
I am not so fluent in English, please expect many English language related issues ... Thanks
Haneen,

Instead of combining documented QESH subsystems it is better to make the system that runs the business conform to all three standards.

You can achieve this by analyzing the system that runs the business starting with the core process for converting customer needs into cash in the bank ($ per millisecond indicates that rate at which the core process adds value). Conversion is slowed by failures to prevent pollution and accidents, therefore it makes business sense to prevent both while working to convert customer needs into cash. :D

Once you have a good understanding of the core process and its key processes you can integrate the key processes necessary to resource and continually improve the core process. Most of these key support processes come from the system standards. You will also have to use your common sense. For example, even though none of the system standards mention "recruiting and hiring" you must have this key process as part of your management system because training alone cannot deliver competence. :bonk:

Deploying regulations to the management system and evaluating compliance to these regulations is a key support process but not the primary driving force for effective health, safety and environmental management. Much more noble reasons exist, such as involving the employees in managing risk, and these reasons keep the organization competitive and well within the law. :agree1:

If you want more information, to help you to develop and document your management system, we can communicate privately.

I wish you well,

John
 
H

Haneen

#29
Haneen,

Instead of combining documented QESH subsystems it is better to make the system that runs the business conform to all three standards.
John,
100% agreed ... what i was trying to say that it is easy to collect the different systems of Q/HS/E in one manual, make some make ups & consider it as integration while it is not ... integration is one system to cover all

I will PM you soon

Regards
 
K

kwick

#30
You really think that? I'm an EHS professional and I haven't met a quality guy yet that has made me so much as blink.:lol: I learned systems thinking putting together and managing EHS programs for little companies like Lockheed and ITT. You had to do PDCA or risk failure, and failure meant injured/dead people or a damaged environment.

From what I've seen and experienced it is far easier for an EHS professional to transition to Quality than a Quality person to transfer to EHS.....In fact ISO 19011 recommends a more technical and varied background for EMS auditors than it does for QMS folks.........the same would hold true for the Safety auditors.

In fact, I'd venture that very few quality practitioners would actually bet their life and the life of another on the "quality" of their work. I have and I did it a few thousand times. When I inspected the work performed on an aircraft from the day we washed it, disassembled it, and put it back together I knew I was putting my life on the line. As the QA/QC Inspection who signed off aircraft as Safe-For-Flight I was required to participate in the test flight as a crew member. Normally the flight crew consisted of the Maintenance Test Pilot and me........My signature basically said "I trust my work so much that I will take the 1st flights to verify/validate that this sucker really works". I've got over 3,000 hours of 15 minute to 1 hours test flights. After that, looking at charts, graphs amd diagrams really ain't that hard.

I agree with you about the "turf wars", but I'm sure not worried about some old quality professional trying to push me aside........:nope:
Randy:

Really glad to see some aviation talk on this thread.:bigwave:

I am following studies in Integrated Management Systems, and this is mainly because my area of concern is in aviation. As you know, Safety Management Systems (SMS) is now mandated by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) for all of aviation enterprises, which includes airlines, airports, air traffic control, and maintenance organizations (and services or goods providers for all of them).

I have downloaded the information in a form of a link to a manual that you posted in other thread, that is Canyon Offshore IMSM, and found it really interesting for an example of integration of the management systems. If you or someone on this thread happen to have some further information that could serve the purpose for my studies on Integrated Management Systems, I will greatly appreciate it if you could forward it.

Thanks a lot for your help, keep up the good work !!!!!:thanx:

Best regards,

Raul O. Castillo
 
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