Interesting Nonconformance During Upgrade Audit to ISO 9001:2008

  • Thread starter Jason PCSwitches
  • Start date
J

Jason PCSwitches

#1
[FONT=&quot]2 weeks ago I assisted an organization with their upgrade audit to the ISO 9001:2008 standard.

Note: They are/have been certified to the ISO-2000/AS9100-B standard for many years. Interestingly they had a re-cert audit last year (same time of year) & received re-cert to AS9100-B. For some reason the CB did not include the ISO upgrade in the scope of the audit; thus forcing the organization to spend more $$ this time around for requirements that were literally just assessed.?.?.?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The audit itself went well and the upgrade will happen. They/we actually had only 2 NC's noted; one of which I find very questionable and I would like to get the thoughts of other professionals as to the validity of the NC.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Note: I did tactfully discuss the NC with the CB auditor but he was sticking to his guns and it is a very, very, easy fix. That being said I didn't and do not want to start (as we say in the south) a pissing contest and make a mountain over a molehill. Keep in mind that while I understand the angle of proper disposition, you need to pick & choose your battles; sometimes it's better to just let sleeping dogs lie (clique).[/FONT]

Here is the NC as recorded on the report:

"The quality manual has not been updated to ISO 9001:2008"


"The organization shall establish and maintain a quality manual that
includes
the scope of the quality management system, including details of and justification for any exclusions (see 1.2)"



[FONT=&quot]Here's the thing, I understand that the QM should reflect 2008, however, in my opinion & understanding, an organization cannot publish any form of media stating conformity to a standard that they have not yet been "officially" granted certification to. Actually per this particular CB’s procedure, the only allowable form of certification publication must reflect what is on the certificate, exactly.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]So, is the NC valid? I feel it could/should have been handled differently. Should an organization change and circulate (externally) documentation stating certification to a standard that they have not yet been certified to?[/FONT] I don't think so.


[FONT=&quot]While I understand the angle that the QM should be conformant to the standard, it must be kept in mind that this document, the organizations QM, is circulated weekly as need be. This is dangerous ground in my view and if CB's write NC's in this regard it could lead us down a path we didn't anticipate.[/FONT]

It literally took me 5 minutes to correct this and define the root cause, which was fun to concoct.

Please share your thoughts....
 
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somashekar

Staff member
Super Moderator
#2
Re: Interesting NC During Upgrade To ISO-2008

A quality manual of an enterprise aligned to a standard and the certification of that enterprise to that standard are in no way connected.
I guess the NC is valid, but holds no weight.
" Did the quality manual before the NC was issued have the ISO 9001:2000 referred ... ??"
 

Chennaiite

Never-say-die
Trusted Information Resource
#3
Re: Interesting NC During Upgrade To ISO-2008

I have two ways of looking at your case. Number one, the auditor seems to have come with the pre-occupied mind of ending up the audit with 2 NCs and he has done exactly the same by making some observation that wouldn't add any value.
Number two, the fact that you are not certified yet wouldn't stop you from claiming conformity to the Standard in written. I would be surprised if such a rule does exist.
 

ScottK

Not out of the crisis
Staff member
Super Moderator
#4
Re: Interesting NC During Upgrade To ISO-2008

I say in in the QM that the QMS complies with ISO9001:2008.

I would not say in the QM that the QMS is registered to a standard. That's what the certificate is for.

I doubt I would have written an NC about it unless it was pervasive in other documents.

Any company can claim conformity to anything. They can't claim registration or certification.
 

ScottK

Not out of the crisis
Staff member
Super Moderator
#6
Re: Interesting NC During Upgrade To ISO-2008

Or, you could remove altogether the reference to the revision level and simply state: "...complies with ISO 9001..." or "...complies with the current version of ISO 9001...".

Simple, no? ;)
CB at my last job made us put the rev year.

didn't write an NC though. Noted it in the pre-audit QM review and we had it fixed before he showed up.

I'm thinking the auditor in the OP's post didn't do a pre-audit quality manual review.
 
J

Jason PCSwitches

#7
Re: Interesting NC During Upgrade To ISO-2008

[FONT=&quot]This is a good point. I did provide him, as one should, with a copy of the QM prior to the audit so he could develop his plan.

Due to this perception, I have advised the marketing department to remove all references to certification from marketing literature and also advised so for internal documentation. The company’s certification should be enough when requests are made.

I've also noticed that most of the larger organizations are moving this way as well. It's a matter of cost. Every time you upgrade/re-cert they have a mountain of documentation to change and that is very expensive. IMHO, let the actual cert speak for itself when need be. After all, not all but most organizations are required to or are seeking/have certification to an appropriate standard, at least in this industry. It just makes good business sense.[/FONT]
 
M

mguilbert

#8
Re: Interesting NC During Upgrade To ISO-2008

Or, you could remove altogether the reference to the revision level and simply state: "...complies with ISO 9001..." or "...complies with the current version of ISO 9001...".

Simple, no? ;)
That is what I had done. It was time consuming to find everywhere the rev. year was included but we wouldv'e had to do it any way and now we will not have to it next time.

Also we had no problem with the CB.
 
J

Jason PCSwitches

#9
Re: Interesting NC During Upgrade To ISO-2008

Or, you could remove altogether the reference to the revision level and simply state: "...complies with ISO 9001..." or "...complies with the current version of ISO 9001...".

Simple, no? ;)
[FONT=&quot]While I agree that a reference to the specific applicable standard may not be required or overtime value added, note that the CB has strict requirements regarding "marketing" material. Technically, due to an organizations QM generally being circulated outside the organization it is considered marketing material as well as a QM.

That being said, we must follow the guidelines imposed by the CB and specifically list/reference certifications in the manner described. It may be possible to get an exception to this but I think it would be difficult as the CB's themselves have restrictions imposed in this regard.[/FONT]
 

ScottK

Not out of the crisis
Staff member
Super Moderator
#10
Re: Interesting NC During Upgrade To ISO-2008

[FONT=&quot]Due to this perception, I have advised the marketing department to remove all references to certification from marketing literature and also advised so for internal documentation. The company’s certification should be enough when requests are made.
I don't know if I would have gone that far...
Registration to standards and directives and such is a marketing tool. That's usually half (if not more) of the reason to get to third party certificate.

If you have it, flaunt it...just make sure the marketing people stay current and update literature, web site, etc.
 
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