Internal Audit - Can auditor impose his own corrective actions?

Z

Zigzag

#1
Hi everyone, we just had internal audit of production area I'm responsible for. The auditor found non-conformance and "suggested" corrective actions which I don't agree with. Does internal auditor have a right to force me to implement his corrective actions? I always thought that auditor issue corrective actions request and it is auditee who is supposed to find the best way to solve non-conformance. Obviously corrective action would have to be approved as adequate by auditor.
The method states: "Check if the automatic valve is fully opened".
I explained him that this sentence is redundant and it would be better to remove it from the procedure. It is automatic valve and is supposed to open same way as other 10 automatic valves in the process. It has failed to open only once in last 2 years. I don't see the reason why I'm supposed to check it every time only because it may fail one day (though it may be part of troubleshooting).
Internal auditor said that since it's in the procedure it must be important and I have to follow it and also add tick box on the manufacturing form to prove it is checked each time. He said also that I have no other choice but to implement his corrective actions (because he is more experience in QMS and knows better). I'd appreciate your opinion on this problem.
Our company is working on our QMS (ISO 9001).
 
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Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#2
Welcome to the Cove! :bigwave: This is a good question.

As an internal auditor I have, over time built efficiency steps into the process. One of them has been the "closing meeting" (call it what you like - I will hold mine in person or via email drafts of audit reports) in which issues are clarified with their owners, and some assurance of their comprehension - and, ideally, buy-in - is achieved. Ideally this would also mean they accept the finding, which by the way is pretty much how registrars deal with findings. I have almost always found there is opportunity to clarify/rebut the auditors' findings by the point of the closing meeting, and as well there should be. An auditor should not close the audit phase with ambiguity remaining. When that happens, clearing nonconformances tends to get too messy.

I wonder if the sense of messiness I am reading here is based on a lack of the auditor's communicating the nonconformity, or your not agreeing with it. You haven't listed the exact, word-for-word nonconformance, but it sounds like "Process does not match procedure" or, as you've described, "procedure updates have not always occurred in a timely fashion." Whichever is the case, the fact is the same. Performance is not a according to procedure. The process owner gets to identify why that's happened and why it took an auditor to notice. You're not off the hook for that.

So the only thing I'm unclear about is what corrective action this auditor is requiring of you, besides to ensure process matches procedure and why the disconnect had been allowed to remain until he got there.

I hope this makes sense!
 
T

trainerbob

#3
The function of an internal auditor is to collect objective evidence as to whether or not the criteria being audited against is being met. Once that evidence has been reported to management it is their responsibility to determine what is to be done. It is not the job of the auditor to suggest corrective actions.
 
D

Duke Okes

#4
Corrective actions are the responsibility of the process owner, typically with input/review by QA to ensure compliance to external standards.
 
A

adickerson

#5
I agree with what was said before the job of an auditor is to be objective to the standard or the company stated QMS.

However, when it comes to an Internal Audit things can be a bit tricky. Unless you have full time auditors my guess is that after the audit the auditor goes back to doing other things in the company. If the auditor is a member of management then once the audit is over all bets are off in terms of objectivity, the job is to then fix solutions. If the auditor is also your supervisor then I guess you may be out of luck.

:2cents:If you firmly believe checking the valve every time is a waste then there my be other ways to solve the problem that you could talk about. This sort of activity could be part of a Continuous Improvement Project that you bring up after the audit issues are addressed. Rather focusing on the one valve look at the systemic problems of valves not working. You mentioned that there are lots of other valves, can you check ALL valves at the start of end of each shift? Should checking valves be part of a larger PM program that checks monthly and not just operator review? Would it be better for trained maintenance personnel to evaluate equipment rather then an operator?
 
S

sitapaty

#6
Corrective actions are the responsibility of the process owner, typically with input/review by QA to ensure compliance to external standards.
What if the corrective actions suggested are obviously not going to be effective?
Sitapaty
 

somashekar

Staff member
Super Moderator
#7
Hi everyone, we just had internal audit of production area I'm responsible for. The auditor found non-conformance and "suggested" corrective actions which I don't agree with. Does internal auditor have a right to force me to implement his corrective actions? I always thought that auditor issue corrective actions request and it is auditee who is supposed to find the best way to solve non-conformance. Obviously corrective action would have to be approved as adequate by auditor.
The method states: "Check if the automatic valve is fully opened".
I explained him that this sentence is redundant and it would be better to remove it from the procedure. It is automatic valve and is supposed to open same way as other 10 automatic valves in the process. It has failed to open only once in last 2 years. I don't see the reason why I'm supposed to check it every time only because it may fail one day (though it may be part of troubleshooting).
Internal auditor said that since it's in the procedure it must be important and I have to follow it and also add tick box on the manufacturing form to prove it is checked each time. He said also that I have no other choice but to implement his corrective actions (because he is more experience in QMS and knows better). I'd appreciate your opinion on this problem.
Our company is working on our QMS (ISO 9001).
I feel it will be wonderful if you both can perform the dual role of auditor and auditee first (that you have done) and then perform the role of being owner of your respective process, in discussing the corrective action, be it whatever.
The beauty of internal audit is in building a strong mechanism to check and correct processes and bring in improvements, and this must not be lost in ego, one upmanship, or 'do as i say' type of intervention.
Lets remember that there is no one way of doing anything, and that you can always find a better way than what you are defining as time goes by.
 
#9
Welcome to the Cove, Zigzag, and thank you for an interesting first post. :bigwave:

I always thought that auditor issue corrective actions request and it is auditee who is supposed to find the best way to solve non-conformance. Obviously corrective action would have to be approved as adequate by auditor.
I agree. This is the generally accepted idea.

This topic has come up many times before (See the links at the bottom of the page for links to other similar discussions), but it is always worth another discussion. Rules and customs apart, an auditor has one particularly good reason not to suggest remedies to the issues found. Let's assume for a second that you actually do suggest something and the receiving party does what you tell them: Now assume that it doesn't work... Where does that leave you? I 'll tell you where: With a whole lot less credibility than you used to have when you return for the next audit...

That said, the trick is to describe any issue well enough to make it reasonably certain that the suggested (by the auditee) correction will be something that actually solves the problem. It may not necessarily be what you had in mind, as the auditee's representative is almost certain to know the process in question better than you do.

Internal auditor said that since it's in the procedure it must be important
That is his interpretation. Maybe the procedure is wrong?
and I have to follow it and also add tick box on the manufacturing form to prove it is checked each time.
Or so he assumes. Maybe the procedure should be updated instead?
He said also that I have no other choice but to implement his corrective actions (because he is more experience in QMS and knows better).
Maybe he has more experience in dealing with a QMS, but I am pretty certain that you as the process owner knows your process better than he does, so maybe he does not know better after all... Now I suppose you will have to apply the tact and diplomacy he should have used.

/Claes
 
Last edited:
G

George Weiss

#10
The NC, (non-conformance):
Is your process dealing with hazardous chemicals or special safety requirements?
OSHA or EPA regulations?
There might have been a past issue, which was resolved by the current, seemingly cautious and redundant procedure.
You spoke of a previous value failure. There could be risk of a repeat failure, which must be avoided.
An open dialog with the auditor, and some history investigation of the process you manage might offer more insight.
You have a situation where being a team player is needed. Learn from this experience.
Be sure to have the auditor’s name and his specific guidance in the issuance of the NC.
NC subjects are endless in all areas of all companies. A NC is many times a pecking order tool.
Arguing the need for a procedure refinement is part of continual improvement.
Blocking a correction could be viewed negatively in a group discussion.
Reflect on if this is really important to resist, and not if it is procedurally right.
play it smart, maybe, and "let.....it.......go", as Rambo said in the movie First Blood.
;)
 
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