Internal Audit finding leading to 'Punishment' (Disciplinary Action) - Your Thoughts?

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#41
Re: Internal Audit finding leading to 'Punishment' (Disciplinary Action) - Your Thoug

Let's get one thing straight here - the direct quote from the OP was
When reporting this the department manager said that the supervisor will be ’punished’.
[bold face emphasis is mine!]
This OP has sufficient command of the English language to make ME believe there is no confusion between "punishment" and "discipline."

Most of us agree that "discipline" - (following the rules) is probably a good thing in a business environment, but "punishment" (fines, withdrawing of privileges, pay cuts, firing, etc.) is not. I suspect most of my current- and ex-military brethren here will agree that "most" military "punishments" (like extra pushups or KP for unintentionally fouling up an order or command - there is a BIG spread of possible offenses wrapped up in § 892 92 Failure to obey order or regulation - mostly based on the difference of "intent") are intended to be a form of retraining to ensure the soldier (even officer!) gets it right when the chips are down and lives are on the line.

There is also a major difference in my mind [and, I suspect, in the mind of the officer doling out discipline] between a soldier who falls out of step in a close order drill or presents an improperly cleaned weapon and the one who commits an infraction of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (one of the following)
Section Article Title
§ 877 77 Principals
§ 878 78 Accessory after the fact
§ 879 79 Conviction of lesser included offense.
§ 880 80 Attempts
§ 881 81 Conspiracy
§ 882 82 Solicitation
§ 883 83 Fraudulent enlistment, appointment, or separation
§ 884 84 Unlawful enlistment, appointment, or separation
§ 885 85 Desertion
§ 886 86 Absence without leave
§ 887 87 Missing movement
§ 888 88 Contempt toward officials
§ 889 89 Disrespect toward superior commissioned officer
§ 890 90 Assaulting or willfully disobeying superior commissioned officer
§ 891 91 Insubordinate conduct toward warrant officer, noncommissioned officer, or petty officer
§ 892 92 Failure to obey order or regulation
§ 893 93 Cruelty and maltreatment
§ 894 94 Mutiny or sedition
§ 895 95 Resistance, flight, breach of arrest, and escape
§ 896 96 Releasing prisoner without proper authority
§ 897 97 Unlawful detention
§ 898 98 Noncompliance with procedural rules
§ 899 99 Misbehavior before the enemy
§ 900 100 Subordinate compelling surrender
§ 901 101 Improper use of countersign
§ 902 102 Forcing a safeguard
§ 903 103 Captured or abandoned property
§ 904 104 Aiding the enemy
§ 905 105 Misconduct as prisoner
§ 906 106 Spies
§ 906a 106a Espionage
§ 907 107 False official statements
§ 908 108 Military property of United States—Loss, damage, destruction, or wrongful disposition
§ 909 109 Property other than military property of United States—waste, spoilage, or destruction
§ 910 110 Improper hazarding of vessel
§ 911 111 Drunken or reckless operation of a vehicle, aircraft, or vessel
§ 912 112 Drunk on duty
§ 912a 112a Wrongful use, possession, etc., of controlled substances
§ 913 113 Misbehavior of sentinel
§ 914 114 Dueling
§ 915 115 Malingering
§ 916 116 Riot or breach of peace
§ 917 117 Provoking speeches or gestures
§ 918 118 Murder
§ 919 119 Manslaughter
§ 919 119a Death or injury of an unborn child
§ 920 120 Rape and carnal knowledge
§ 920a 120a Stalking
§ 921 121 Larceny and wrongful appropriation
§ 922 122 Robbery
§ 923 123 Forgery
§ 923a 123a Making, drawing, or uttering check, draft, or order without sufficient funds
§ 924 124 Maiming
§ 925 125 Sodomy
§ 926 126 Arson
§ 927 127 Extortion
§ 928 128 Assault
§ 929 129 Burglary
§ 930 130 Housebreaking
§ 931 131 Perjury
§ 932 132 Frauds against the United States
§ 933 133 Conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman
§ 934 134 General article
Ah well - I'm glad MY days in the War College (as an instructor) are more than 40 years in the past!
 
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Tom W

#42
Re: Internal Audit finding leading to 'Punishment' (Disciplinary Action) - Your Thoug

Another Waiteism for you all:

Punishment without discipline is criminal; discipline without punishment is leadership.

Use situations like this OP comment as a learning experience; either the employee learns something or you do as the manager; better yet both of you learn something.

It may have just come down to a poor choice of words; and the intent might have been to say the employee will be instructed to improve...
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#43
Re: Internal Audit finding leading to 'Punishment' (Disciplinary Action) - Your Thoug

Another Waiteism for you all:

Punishment without discipline is criminal; discipline without punishment is leadership.

Use situations like this OP comment as a learning experience; either the employee learns something or you do as the manager; better yet both of you learn something.

It may have just come down to a poor choice of words; and the intent might have been to say the employee will be instructed to improve...
More likely, that the HOPE of any bystander would have been that was the INTENT, the reality would have been "just another clueless manager, who was himself a victim of the Peter Principle - promoted beyond his competence!"
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#44
Re: Internal Audit finding leading to 'Punishment' (Disciplinary Action) - Your Thoug

I think there is a place outside Vegas where Mistress Vicky will punish as well:lmao:
 
T

Tom W

#45
Re: Internal Audit finding leading to 'Punishment' (Disciplinary Action) - Your Thoug

Point taken Randy - in that case it may or may not be criminal....

:lmao::bonk:

:topic:
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#46
Re: Internal Audit finding leading to 'Punishment' (Disciplinary Action) - Your Thoug

I think there is a place outside Vegas where Mistress Vicky will punish as well:lmao:
I've read [and seen on TV's CSI (the original Vegas one)] the most frequent users of Mistress Vicky's services are those who have a lot of power and authority in real life - sounds like a guilty conscience begging to be punished, doesn't it?

So tell us, Randy: "How do YOU have knowledge of Mistress Vicky?":notme:
 

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Staff member
Super Moderator
#47
Re: Internal Audit finding leading to 'Punishment' (Disciplinary Action) - Your Thoug

Isn't the intent of an Internal Audit, to determine what improvements, and processes, continually (consistently) producing the intended product, to satisfy the needs of the Customer and the Organization? Why would you "discipline" someone?
 

BradM

Staff member
Admin
#48
Re: Internal Audit finding leading to 'Punishment' (Disciplinary Action) - Your Thoug

This discussion of punishment and military is bringing the ghosts of A Few Good Men to mind.

Our men follow orders, or people die. It's that simple.
If your orders are followed to the letter, why would Private Santiago been in any danger?
But even though the two marines were following orders... they still got Court Martialed. Hmm.....

You fine gentlemen correct me if I'm wrong, but you were punished for not following orders because the very success of the military depends on unity and chain of command, and not each person deciding to do their own thing. This is... a matter of life and death.

Following QMS procedures are a different matter altogether (no Airplane quote here, please:lol:). Those procedures are ever evolving, improving, getting better. That requires fostering a culture where questions can be asked, and the focus is on the processes; not the people. If you start going after people, any innovation will disappear almost instantly from the system.
 

BradM

Staff member
Admin
#49
Re: Internal Audit finding leading to 'Punishment' (Disciplinary Action) - Your Thoug

Isn't the intent of an Internal Audit, to determine what improvements, and processes, continually (consistently) producing the intended product, to satisfy the needs of the Customer and the Organization? Why would you "discipline" someone?
Good points, Coury.

To me, it's the "Perfect crystal vase" vs. the potter and the work in progress.

Management views this "package" the binder of stuff, as "the key". It got us through an audit, so it must be just fine. Thus, it's put up in the china cabinet as the museum piece to be admired.

Instead of those who look at it as a work in progress, constantly molded, reformed, refined.

To me, the "punishment" mentality comes from the short-term vision of the value of a good QMS.
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#50
Re: Internal Audit finding leading to 'Punishment' (Disciplinary Action) - Your Thoug

Isn't the intent of an Internal Audit, to determine what improvements, and processes, continually (consistently) producing the intended product, to satisfy the needs of the Customer and the Organization? Why would you "discipline" someone?
Absolutely! We audit processes and systems, not people!
 
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