Internal Audit finding leading to 'Punishment' (Disciplinary Action) - Your Thoughts?

Weiner Dog

Med Device Consultant
#61
Re: Internal Audit finding leading to 'Punishment' (Disciplinary Action) - Your Thoug

Just from the title- the top or mid management does not get quality. The system not people is broken. Fix the system not punish the people.

When auditing the department I found that one supervisor did not performe the requested checks and the person who should check the supervisors had not seen this.
When reporting this the department manager he doesn't take the planned correction for non-compliances identified.
When reporting this to the general manager ....
When reporting this to the company manager ....
I think that we have to go home and doing something of better than fight against windmills
:truce:
 
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bobdoering

Stop X-bar/R Madness!!
Trusted Information Resource
#62
Re: Internal Audit finding leading to 'Punishment' (Disciplinary Action) - Your Thoug

The problem is as follows: last month we had a rather serious complaint from one of our customers. The cause of this was a human error (operator mistake) and his supervisor did not check the operators work as agreed.
Because of this some additional check’s have been added by the responsible management and the supervisors are told that ‘forgetting’ a check will have serious consequences. Also there is someone within the company appointed to check the supervisors.
Hey, look! They reinvented the Layered Audit process from the automotive realm!

When auditing there is some trust between auditor and auditee. When using audit results for punishment this trust is violated. Management does not agree with this and insists on using audit results for this purpose.
To a degree, fear will have the auditees clam up and hide things. On the other hand, if objective evidence is found that someone did not follow the system, then there needs to be an appropriate 'corrective action.' Saying it is an audit of the system and not of the people can be a cop out. There are certain responsibilities for people within a system - or it would be a 100% poke-a-yoke automated 'lights out' system (as in no people). If they willingly go against the system, then you can not always blame the system.
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#63
Re: Internal Audit finding leading to 'Punishment' (Disciplinary Action) - Your Thoug

Hey, look! They reinvented the Layered Audit process from the automotive realm!



To a degree, fear will have the auditees clam up and hide things. On the other hand, if objective evidence is found that someone did not follow the system, then there needs to be an appropriate 'corrective action.' Saying it is an audit of the system and not of the people can be a cop out. There are certain responsibilities for people within a system - or it would be a 100% poke-a-yoke automated 'lights out' system (as in no people). If they willingly go against the system, then you can not always blame the system.
Not a cop out!
Root cause first:
WHY did employee not do job?

  • Understanding?
  • Physically or mentally incapable?
  • Poorly trained?
  • Too rushed?
  • Wrong tools?
  • Sabotage? (WHY?)
  • etc. etc.
Ultimately, Deming had it right - it's up to management to put SYSTEMS in motion to eliminate or ameliorate causes of variation or nonconformance.

Perhaps the system to hire such nonconforming employees was faulty? Whose fault was that?

Even Harry Truman had it right: "The buck stops here!" [at the top]

 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#64
Re: Internal Audit finding leading to 'Punishment' (Disciplinary Action) - Your Thoug

Not a cop out!
Root cause first:
WHY did employee not do job?

  • Understanding?
  • Physically or mentally incapable?
  • Poorly trained?
  • Too rushed?
  • Wrong tools?
  • Sabotage? (WHY?)
  • etc. etc.
Ultimately, Deming had it right - it's up to management to put SYSTEMS in motion to eliminate or ameliorate causes of variation or nonconformance.

Perhaps the system to hire such nonconforming employees was faulty? Whose fault was that?

Even Harry Truman had it right: "The buck stops here!" [at the top]
It's trivially true that the system is the leading cause of errors, but it's just as trivially true (to those who think about it rather than regurgitating--and/or misunderstanding--their guru's aphorisms) that people make innocent mistakes that are not assignable to the system.

As I said nearly four years ago, further up the thread,
Just as with machines, there are patterns of human behavior that can serve to indicate when a point beyond the control limits is just "noise" (an unavoidable error) or when it's part of a trend that requires management intervention. This should in no way be interpreted as dehumanization; the simple fact is that nature (even human nature) exhibits predictable patterns, and managers need to know when a pattern requires intervention and when to leave well enough alone.
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#66
Re: Internal Audit finding leading to 'Punishment' (Disciplinary Action) - Your Thoug

Inevitably we will eventually find someone who is not working on a task that is suitable to their abilities and/or temperament.

The temperament - even a psychological issue like a personality disorder - could be at the root of choosing to not adhere to process. However, my long and storied experience with kids, animals and adults has left me convinced that disciplinary responses to discovering the "failure" in whatever way don't reliably change temperament. If a person is unsuitable because of lacking sufficient intrinsic motivation, we have HR to address that personnel issue. I approached this subject a little in my When Employees Don't Follow Procedures paper.

The audit should only be a portal for discovery of an issue. If the issue is more widespread than a once-or-twice occurrence, the audit is followed up by a discovery process. From there the human issues are separated out from material, machine and culture factors. No internal audit finding should be the reason for disciplinary action. I do not think this is a copout, I just think a more pragmatic approach is needed for deciding on need for discipline.
 

bobdoering

Stop X-bar/R Madness!!
Trusted Information Resource
#67
Re: Internal Audit finding leading to 'Punishment' (Disciplinary Action) - Your Thoug

It can be.
Root cause first:
WHY did employee not do job?

  • Understanding?
  • Physically or mentally incapable?
  • Poorly trained?
  • Too rushed?
  • Wrong tools?
  • Sabotage? (WHY?)
  • etc. etc.
Ultimately, Deming had it right - it's up to management to put SYSTEMS in motion to eliminate or ameliorate causes of variation or nonconformance.

Perhaps the system to hire such nonconforming employees was faulty? Whose fault was that?

Maybe they were not nonconforming when they were hired, but became that way. Should we chart their behavior so we can predict when they are going to become nonconforming? We may find a measureable...(Deming would love that.) Maybe it was an issue outside of the firm that was the root cause. Maybe the boss cut them off in the parking lot - or the employee thought he did. Is that the system's fault? Must the system have so many redundant systems and measures to trap every human misdeed prior to it being made? The "system" does not generate and maintain automatons or marionettes. Sure, the system can be the cause and, sure, it should be the first place to look. But, it is not the only root cause. I am not buying it - no matter what Deming says. I think even he would assign a probability to it.
 
B

Bill Pflanz

#68
Re: Internal Audit finding leading to 'Punishment' (Disciplinary Action) - Your Thoug

The audit should only be a portal for discovery of an issue. If the issue is more widespread than a once-or-twice occurrence, the audit is followed up by a discovery process. From there the human issues are separated out from material, machine and culture factors. No internal audit finding should be the reason for disciplinary action. I do not think this is a copout, I just think a more pragmatic approach is needed for deciding on need for discipline.
I think Jennifer is correct. More than likely if there is a need for discipline it has more behind it then one isolated finding during an audit. As an auditor I would not like to see management use it as a replacement for their own responsibiblity for identifying and correcting problems that need a disciplinary review. I have had managers whose first response for corrective action implied disciplining the person and I immediately counseled them on the need for review of the process rather than blaming an individual.

Bill Pflanz
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#69
Re: Internal Audit finding leading to 'Punishment' (Disciplinary Action) - Your Thoug

It can be.


Maybe they were not nonconforming when they were hired, but became that way. Should we chart their behavior so we can predict when they are going to become nonconforming? We may find a measureable...(Deming would love that.) Maybe it was an issue outside of the firm that was the root cause. Maybe the boss cut them off in the parking lot - or the employee thought he did. Is that the system's fault? Must the system have so many redundant systems and measures to trap every human misdeed prior to it being made? The "system" does not generate and maintain automatons or marionettes. Sure, the system can be the cause and, sure, it should be the first place to look. But, it is not the only root cause. I am not buying it - no matter what Deming says. I think even he would assign a probability to it.
Your focus appears to assign a physical meaning to the term system. I think what Deming was trying to say is that managers shouldn't be off the hook with personnel problems, just as with process malfunctions. If poison people impact the motivation or performance of others, there should be an effective system to deal with that, and it should be used so the caring workers can get to the business of doing their work well.

A good management system should include the human performance management element by removing constraints to good performance in whichever appropriate way: technical, material or emotional. So yes, in that context it is a system problem.
 

bobdoering

Stop X-bar/R Madness!!
Trusted Information Resource
#70
Re: Internal Audit finding leading to 'Punishment' (Disciplinary Action) - Your Thoug

Your focus appears to assign a physical meaning to the term system. I think what Deming was trying to say is that managers shouldn't be off the hook with personnel problems, just as with process malfunctions. If poison people impact the motivation or performance of others, there should be an effective system to deal with that, and it should be used so the caring workers can get to the business of doing their work well.

A good management system should include the human performance management element by removing constraints to good performance in whichever appropriate way: technical, material or emotional. So yes, in that context it is a system problem.

I don't have a problem using the term 'system' that globally! But, that would make the mantra: "It is an audit of the system. People are a part of the system." That I would by very readily! That would cover those 'constraints' of the various human 'defects' that can occur...as special causes, one would hope - not common ones!
 
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