Internal Audit Finding - Root Cause Analysis: Auditor or an Auditee Responsibility?

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Polly Pure Bread

#1
Is it a good idea that an investigation to find root cause be part of itinerary of the auditor after discussing findings and deficiencies during closing meeting? Isn’t RCA the responsibility of auditee? The bottom line: prime responsibility is to present a true and fair review of the status of the management system.
 
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#2
Re: Root Cause Analysis: Responsibility of an Auditor or an Auditee?

What a great question!

I believe that there's a difference between the two points you make. It is the (internal) auditor's job to diagnose and report on the effectiveness of the management system, in a fair and true manner. Any findings should be a 'launching point' for management to be able to take action. It would be inappropriate for an auditor to be 'working on' RCA, during the audit.
 
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JaneB

#3
Re: Root Cause Analysis: Responsibility of an Auditor or an Auditee?

Yes, it is a good question.

Andy, I agree that an internal auditor (I assume that's what you mean by auditor, dqA? couldn't work on it during the audit, but the question was about after the closing meeting, ie, after the audit.

In which case I think an internal auditor might be part of such a group, and their presence might be useful. But only as an extra resource/other set of eyes: it is very definitely not their responsibility to find root cause. :nope:

I would beware any thing that might suggest that or blur the lines of what audit is and is not. Apart from other issues, you can and probably will get the department/team/area manager's nose seriously out of joint (not surprisingly) if an auditor not only comes in & audits and then reports on their findings but also thendiagnoses why the problems exist. It's the manager's job to investigate and rectify, not the auditor's. The auditor can't possibly know as much about it as the manager (or shouldn't!)
 
A

amanbhai

#4
Re: Root Cause Analysis: Responsibility of an Auditor or an Auditee?

It is a misconception about the internal audits.
Management in many organizations believe that internal auditor is hired to audit and improve and it is therefore his resopnsibility to investigate the RCA and suggest the corrective actions accordingly. If he doesn't he is just wasting our time and money.
 
P

Polly Pure Bread

#5
Re: Root Cause Analysis: Responsibility of an Auditor or an Auditee?

Thank you, Andy and Ms Jane. But how can an auditor get the truth without doing root cause analysis?

As for Ms Jane’s clarificatory question, yes I am referring to internal auditor.
 
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A

anil123

#6
Re: Root Cause Analysis: Responsibility of an Auditor or an Auditee?

Is it a good idea that an investigation to find root cause be part of itinerary of the auditor after discussing findings and deficiencies during closing meeting? Isn’t RCA the responsibility of auditee? The bottom line: prime responsibility is to present a true and fair review of the status of the management system.
Root cause analysis is the responsibility of the auditee not of auditor. Auditor is only disclose the fact against the written requirements.
 
#7
Re: Root Cause Analysis: Responsibility of an Auditor or an Auditee?

Thank you, Andy and Ms Jane. But how can an auditor get the truth without doing root cause analysis?

As for Ms Jane’s clarificatory question, yes I am referring to internal auditor.
I believe this is a different question to your original post. It is the job of an auditor to plan and prepare information before conducting the audit. This is why the use of canned, pre-prepared checklists are virtually useless.

Once prepared with details of process performance issues, knowledge of process, etc., then the auditor interviews, seeks objective evidence etc to verify the qms. It's an investigation into the implementation of the system and the results. That's where the skills of the auditor are paramount.

There is a difference in an auditor determining a relationship between process and performance and the process owner determining a cause.

One day - if I had my way - internal audits would be done to determine root cause instead of hanging on to old-fashioned externally based audit principles of 'independence' and such. In a new world order, internal auditors should operate as SSGBs!
 
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Brunetta

#8
Re: Root Cause Analysis: Responsibility of an Auditor or an Auditee?

Thank you, Andy and Ms Jane. But how can an auditor get the truth without doing root cause analysis?
I think you are asking
Does the auditor need to determine the "why" a problem is happening to really ascertain that there is a "true" nonconformity?

In our audit process...the auditors look at the requirements of the system, then observe the system (process in action, interviews, record reviews, etc.) and assess if it meets the requirements or not. If the auditor concludes that something does not meet the requirements this is noted in the standard manner i.e. requirement, failure noted, supporting evidence.

Then this is discussed either at the closing meeting or brought to the process owners attention during the audit. Sometimes additional evidence is presented at that time that clarifies if something does or does not comply to both parties. The important thing is that both parties (auditor and auditee) have a full understanding of what was found and agree there is a failure prior to the finding being finalized and placed into our reports.

We also have the option in our audit process to have the auditor assist as a consulting participant in the corrective action plan. However, if the auditor participates in this manner the auditor is then restricted from auditing the process with the issue for a year to ensure impartiality of the next audit.

I hope this helps to answer your question.

~Brunetta
 
B

Brunetta

#9
Re: Internal Audit Finding - Root Cause Analysis: Auditor or an Auditee Responsibilit

Whoops, apparently AndyN is a faster typer than I am! :eek:
 
#10
Re: Root Cause Analysis: Responsibility of an Auditor or an Auditee?

... But how can an auditor get the truth without doing root cause analysis?
Auditors deal with symptoms.... When a nonconformity is discovered, it is just a symptom of an underlying problem. The auditor's value is in showing how this symptom adversely affects the organization.

The auditor can assist in the root cause by explaining symptoms and effects, but it really has to be the process owner/ management to discover what the root cause is. The auditor then can assist is looking at corrective actions to ensure the action will be effective.
 
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