Internal Audit - Is This A Nonconformance?

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M

M Greenaway

#12
Its a good point worth re-stating that the role of the auditor is to report on compliance as well as any non-compliance.

Thankfully we dont get measured for effectiveness on the number of NC's issued yet (unlike our wonderful police force or traffic wardens).
 
J
#13
Interesting post and responses.

My first inclination is to say yes you can write a non-conformance based on the idea of how can the manager review the documents for continued suitability. However, after reading the responses, and recognizing that this is an internal audit, The rules may be a little more relaxed.

If the system is fairly new, then just make a note to watch this area in the future. If the manager is not taking things seriously then he/she will not review and revise procedures as things change. If the manager is just in a learning curve, the audit may help them to remember that the procedure(s) do exist and need to be checked over periodically.

If the system is older, and/or this manager is a troublesome type, you may want to write a minor along the lines that Tom outlined above just to get his attention. I wouldn't try to beat him/her up with it, but just point out that they need to be aware of the procedures and be able to: 1) locate them during an outside audit and 2) be able to keep them up to date. Then commend him/her on how well the area is run and keep up the good work.

Whatever you decide, do it to improve the system, the training and systems awareness.

JMHO

James
 
E

energy

#14
Been there

Originally posted by JRKH
Interesting post and responses.

point out that they need to be aware of the procedures and be able to: 1) locate them during an outside audit and

James
We recently had one of our auditor teams write an N/C because the engineer accessed the database where the procedures reside, and opened the wrong one. A misclick, if you will. I don't have to tell you what happened to that N/C.:vfunny: :ko: :smokin:
 
B

Bruce Epstein

#15
An "official" answer....

Well, I just got caught by this one in real life.

An internal auditor from "Headquarters" was here last week. One of the people he audited was following the procedure at 100% (by the auditor's own admission), but this person admitted that he had never seen the actual procedure itself.

We got a major NC, with the corrective action to improve our "training".

Call me older and wiser now...

:bonk:
 
A

Al Dyer

#16
Bruce,

How can this person be doing a perfect job according to proceedure without even reading it or being trained in it?

It seems at the very least there should be a matrix of who has read the procedure, who has been trained in the procedure. Maybe just some kind of sign-off that the procedure was written following his/her actions because they were the correct way to do it?????

Of course Training is an easy way for an auditor to find a problem, but if the job is being performed correctly, there has to be an assumption that the person knows how to do it?

The President of a company has procedures and processes to follow, can the auditor go up to the President and tell him/her that they have not been correctly trained.

The one thing that should be included in the process of deciding compliance in this situation should be PPM or scrap rates. If a person is trained or know what they do will usually have a lower scrap rate than a new hire.

What happens when the General Manager or President come out to the floor to run a machine during a crisis period, do they need a special certificate to put a blank in the back of every machine?

One time as a management rep I was called out to the floor to load machines under such a situation. Did I know how to do it? NO. Did I learn within 5 minutes what to do? YES Was I formally trained to do the job? NO Was the experience succesful? YES

Was I invited back? NO

I truly believe that product quality can be quantified by experience and training, but there are limits and situations. Sometimes a temp is hired because 2 people don't show up for work. Do they go through a two week training program and get a certificate to show an auditor? NOOOO

What happens if an


OK, off the soapbox, just a subject that hits home!:bigwave:
 
#17
Major N/C?

Bruce:

What was the N/C written against? What “shall” was violated? Was there a procedure? –Yes! Did the operator follow the procedure? – Yes! Is there evidence that the procedure was being followed? – Yes! The question is how did the auditee know what to do? It sounds to me like it was through training. Unless there is a problem with the training records, I cannot see ANY justification for an N/C of any type! I’m not even sure I see an observation. I would fight this until the auditor was removed!:mad:
 
R

Randy Stewart

#18
You're right on it db (sorry if it messes up your reputation here).

We got a major NC, with the corrective action to improve our "training".
Looks to me like the auditor was out to lunch!!!! The operator was obviously well training if s/he didn't need the procedure. Plus it was a procedure and not a work instruction.

:frust:
 
M

M Greenaway

#19
Bruce

I cannot believe the incompetence of your internal auditor - perhaps that is where your companies training is really lacking.

db has said it all really with 'where is the shall', but auditing should also consider effectiveness - by the auditors own admission your training was 100% effective !

Did the auditor actually quote a non-compliance, or did he just suggest the corrective action (which is another no-no) ?
 
B

Bruce Epstein

#20
Originally posted by M Greenaway
Bruce

I cannot believe the incompetence of your internal auditor - perhaps that is where your companies training is really lacking.

db has said it all really with 'where is the shall', but auditing should also consider effectiveness - by the auditors own admission your training was 100% effective !

Did the auditor actually quote a non-compliance, or did he just suggest the corrective action (which is another no-no) ?
Just to clarify the situation, the person who was audited was not an "operator" (as someone seems to have assumed) but a "design engineer". The procedure was written to describe the universally-accepted-but-never-before-formalized "how we work". This engineer's manager was heavily involved in creating the procedure, and she *lives* it in the daily work of her group. This is how the engineer was completely conformant to it without knowing it.

The NC was written against chapter 4.18 of the 1994 standard. As this was our first internal audit, I have a feeling that our auditor needed to show something, especially since they had had such a hard time in his site (US corporate headquarters). In general "They" think that "We" are barely literate savages (*), and "They" could never imagine that "We" could do something better than them.

Moreover, as inappropriate as this specific action might have been, this auditor is still light-years ahead of most of the headquarters people that I need to deal with.

Sigh, such is life...

:frust: :bonk: :mad:

(*) It has really been an eye-opening experience to be on the receiving end of US arrogance and prejudice. But that's a topic for another thread. :smokin:
 
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