SBS - The best value in QMS software

Internal Audit of the Training System - Corrective Action Necessary?

N

NoSleep

#1
I am in the middle of an internal audit of the training system. The training system is fairly basic; we outline in our SOP's what we are going to do for training and we do it. HOWEVER I have decided to take this audit in a deeper direction and cross reference internal (not customer reported) NCR's to a possible gap within the training system. I do believe I have found that our training system is lacking in content and while we do what we say we will do I don't think what we do is extensive enough. So does this fall into a Corrective Action Report area or does it fall under something else?

Thanks in advance:thanx:
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

Mikishots

Trusted Information Resource
#2
Re: Corrective Action Necessary? OR what is the best approach??

I am in the middle of an internal audit of the training system. The training system is fairly basic; we outline in our SOP's what we are going to do for training and we do it. HOWEVER I have decided to take this audit in a deeper direction and cross reference internal (not customer reported) NCR's to a possible gap within the training system. I do believe I have found that our training system is lacking in content and while we do what we say we will do I don't think what we do is extensive enough. So does this fall into a Corrective Action Report area or does it fall under something else?

Thanks in advance:thanx:
In many companies, nonconformance reports are generated for each nonconformance (obviously). They are then typically compiled on a set schedule by quality engineers whose job it is to analyze and trend them. If they find that similar workmanship errors are present (or any other trend is seen), they can generate a corrective action to address the identified issue.

This method of collecting and trending has the advantage of not permitting "knee-jerk" reactions to one-off problems. So often, an incident is seen as a blaring red light identifying a problem, when it may be nothing more than a coincidence or a single, isolated event.
 
N

NoSleep

#3
Re: Corrective Action Necessary? OR what is the best approach??

In many companies, nonconformance reports are generated for each nonconformance (obviously). They are then typically compiled on a set schedule by quality engineers whose job it is to analyze and trend them. If they find that similar workmanship errors are present (or any other trend is seen), they can generate a corrective action to address the identified issue.

This method of collecting and trending has the advantage of not permitting "knee-jerk" reactions to one-off problems. So often, an incident is seen as a blaring red light identifying a problem, when it may be nothing more than a coincidence or a single, isolated event.
We do write up each non conformance individually and address them individually my question was more in regard to a number of NCR's that were written up for the same basic non conformance indicating a gap within our training system. So does that gap in the training get it's own Corrective Action or just a suggestion for continual improvement
 

qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#4
I am in the middle of an internal audit of the training system. The training system is fairly basic; we outline in our SOP's what we are going to do for training and we do it. HOWEVER I have decided to take this audit in a deeper direction and cross reference internal (not customer reported) NCR's to a possible gap within the training system. I do believe I have found that our training system is lacking in content and while we do what we say we will do I don't think what we do is extensive enough. So does this fall into a Corrective Action Report area or does it fall under something else?

Thanks in advance:thanx:
Probably I am missing some piece. If you are perfoming an internal audit and your criteria are related to assess the compliance to your internal SOP, you shall write a non conformance with the evidence in your internal audit report. Based upon this, a CAR should be submitted following the internal audit activity.
I do not understand what you mean for "training system". Is it a tool? ISO 9001 does not require it but only the items of 6.1 and 6.2.
 

RoxaneB

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#5
I am in the middle of an internal audit of the training system. The training system is fairly basic; we outline in our SOP's what we are going to do for training and we do it. HOWEVER I have decided to take this audit in a deeper direction and cross reference internal (not customer reported) NCR's to a possible gap within the training system. I do believe I have found that our training system is lacking in content and while we do what we say we will do I don't think what we do is extensive enough. So does this fall into a Corrective Action Report area or does it fall under something else?

Thanks in advance:thanx:
It sounds as if you are attempting to show the correlation between the responses/actions taken on an issued CAR within your system to your existing training system. This is neither a review of the CAR process or the training process, but a proactive way to show that if CAR after CAR cites re-training, then perhaps the training system is not robust enough.

Is this a correct interpretation on my part?

If so, I applaud the effort and would put under the heading of an "Opportunity for Improvement" as you are attempting to strengthen the training process and your organization's documentation, by the sounds of it.
 
N

NoSleep

#6
It sounds as if you are attempting to show the correlation between the responses/actions taken on an issued CAR within your system to your existing training system. This is neither a review of the CAR process or the training process, but a proactive way to show that if CAR after CAR cites re-training, then perhaps the training system is not robust enough.

Is this a correct interpretation on my part?

If so, I applaud the effort and would put under the heading of an "Opportunity for Improvement" as you are attempting to strengthen the training process and your organization's documentation, by the sounds of it.
You are correct although within our system not every Nonconformance requires a CAR; technically though I am looking to see if our employee training system is not robust enough and that would be why we are seeing recurrence of NCR's a member of management here suggested that I should write a CAR against our personnel training system as a whole but I was thinking it would fall under the category of "Opportunity for Improvement" :thanks: for your help!!!!
 
P

PaulJSmith

#7
I agree with the notion that you have what appears to be an "Opportunity for Improvement" more than an opportunity to write yet another CAR. However, you should handle it in a manner consistent with your company's policy.

And just to throw this out there ...
If you have multiple CARs which point to "training" as the root cause and/or Corrective Action of Nonconformances, you may also have an "Opportunity for Improvement" in your CAPA process.

Something to consider ...
 
N

NoSleep

#8
I agree with the notion that you have what appears to be an "Opportunity for Improvement" more than an opportunity to write yet another CAR. However, you should handle it in a manner consistent with your company's policy.

And just to throw this out there ...
If you have multiple CARs which point to "training" as the root cause and/or Corrective Action of Nonconformances, you may also have an "Opportunity for Improvement" in your CAPA process.

Something to consider ...
Thank you for your input I will look into that system as well and see if we can improve on it also. I have only been in this position with this company for a little over a year and the first year was truly a lot of putting out fires so I feel like I am just now getting the opportunity to help uncover areas that could be improved upon. Thank you again
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#9
Thank you for your input I will look into that system as well and see if we can improve on it also. I have only been in this position with this company for a little over a year and the first year was truly a lot of putting out fires so I feel like I am just now getting the opportunity to help uncover areas that could be improved upon. Thank you again
You're walking around with a heavy solid object, trying to find a container that it will fit in. Think of the improvement process as being liquid and taking the shape of whatever container is used. It's the thing contained that's important, not the container. There is a perceived opportunity to make something better, so instead of trying to determine what to call it, just do it. Paul makes the good observation that you need to handle this in consonance with company policy, but you also need to look at the policy and make sure it allows enough leeway to be able to avoid wasting time on nomenclature.
 

somashekar

Staff member
Super Moderator
#10
I am in the middle of an internal audit of the training system. The training system is fairly basic; we outline in our SOP's what we are going to do for training and we do it. HOWEVER I have decided to take this audit in a deeper direction and cross reference internal (not customer reported) NCR's to a possible gap within the training system. I do believe I have found that our training system is lacking in content and while we do what we say we will do I don't think what we do is extensive enough. So does this fall into a Corrective Action Report area or does it fall under something else?

Thanks in advance:thanx:
When you believed that your training system is lacking in content, I am sure you realized and believed it before being in the middle of an internal audit system. So when you begin to dig deeper into what you believed in an internal audit, you are more into fault finding, which is not the spirit and purpose of the internal audit process.
So when you complete your internal audit objectively and look for both positives and improvement areas, address your good intentions directly as a continual improvement process of the training system. During your next internal audit, get the training process audited by someone else to check on how effective your steps taken have yielded results. :agree:
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
B Looking for 10 Internal Audit Online Training Participants ISO 17025 related Discussions 2
D ISO 9001:2015 Internal Audit Training Advice Internal Auditing 10
M ISO 13485 Audit Questions - Internal Auditor Training and other Requirements ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 10
P Internal Auditor Training - Audit exercises Internal Auditing 5
J Copying pages of the standard for internal audit training classes IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 11
I Internal Audit Training Material Resources ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 8
M Suggestions for Internal Audit Training Courses Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 10
B Value adding for Internal Quality Audit training General Auditing Discussions 18
D Internal Audit Training Material covering ISO 9001, ISO 14001 & OHSAS 18001 Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 1
P Internal vs. external audit training course differences? Internal Auditing 18
A Online Internal Audit Refresher Training - TS 16949 IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
Stijloor Online Internal Audit Training for ISO/TS 16949:2002? Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 1
B Internal Audit Training Material to Train Internal Auditors for ISO9001:2000 Internal Auditing 28
H Carrying out an internal audit on HR/ Training today Internal Auditing 6
eternal_atlas Internal Audit of Training Need Analysis - Compliance Audit General Auditing Discussions 4
Q Offsite ISO TS 16949 Internal Audit Training - Pacific Northwest including California Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 4
Q Objective Evidence - Internal Audit Training in a Cargo Company Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 2
I Audit Scenarios for Internal Auditor Training Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 3
B Internal Audit Training Materials needed - Preferably Powerpoint .ppt file Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 12
D Designing an ISO 9001 Internal Audit Training Course - Need Help Internal Auditing 6
T Internal Audit Training via Correspondence - Recommendations? Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 3
J Internal Audit question - Training failure of new employees Internal Auditing 30
S ISO 9001:2000 Internal Audit Training Providers Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 4
M Seeking template for Internal Audit Training Certificate Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 2
C Internal Audit Training Help - Audit Nonconformance Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 11
J Book Review: Internal Audit Training from Patton Press Book, Video, Blog and Web Site Reviews and Recommendations 10
I Seeking: Internal Audit Training Material - Practice Audits? Internal Auditing 14
Claes Gefvenberg Internal Audit Training - An Internal Audit Training Map Internal Auditing 9
D Heading an Internal Audit Program - What training is required? Internal Auditing 2
U QS 9000 Audit - Trainer of internal auditors not having formal training QS-9000 - American Automotive Manufacturers Standard 6
D 1st Internal Audit & Training Internal Auditing 8
J QS-9000 Internal Audit Training Requirements Internal Auditing 4
M IATF - Internal Audit 3 year span Internal Auditing 2
Q ISO 9001-2015 Internal audit finding Internal Auditing 12
lanley liao How to understand this words that the planning of internal audit shall take into consideration the results of previous audits? Oil and Gas Industry Standards and Regulations 10
A Add MDSAP to Internal Audit Schedule Medical Device Related Regulations 0
J IATF 16949 Internal Audit question - Auditor's responsibility Internal Auditing 6
S IATF 16949 Internal Audit Example IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 8
R AS9100D internal audit checklist or ISO 9001 2015 to AS9100 D AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 2
M ISO 13485:2016 internal audit checklist Medical Device and FDA Regulations and Standards News 5
A Internal Audit Questions ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 11
salaheddine96 Internal audit planning Internal Auditing 2
M ISO 9001 Major Nonconformance Internal Audit Schedule/COVID-19 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 18
E MDR internal audit Internal Auditing 1
U Internal Auditor not trained but done Audit for some process Nonconformance and Corrective Action 5
H AS9100 Checklist for Internal Audit needed AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 2
A What are the pros and cons of using an audit software for internal auditing? General Auditing Discussions 7
F Internal Audit before Pre-Assessment ISO 17025 related Discussions 2
Q Internal audit plan template Internal Auditing 12
L Internal audit during COVID-19 restrictions ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 5

Similar threads

Top Bottom