Internal Audit Questionaires - Checklist that is outside the box

[easttn]

Easy guys, I agree with your points of view. However, until you get a few audits under your belt you don't yet know the process, much less how to audit. I was only giving a list so that someone without prior experience could utilize as a tickler (I even stated that in the post).

As any good auditor grows, they will develop their own process. IMHO that is why you all agree on not using a list; it inhibits VOB assessment trails.

My only reason to post a list is remember when you first began, any list was welcomed, at least to me it was. I was only trying to help.

 

[AndyN]

we all have gone through or conducted an internal audit at one time or anoughter. my quest has been to create a checklist that is outside the box (questions in a form that general peolpe can understand). most of the ones i have come across are in a generic format that are alot of the's and tho's and unless you have graduated ISO collage you probable dont understand. i do realize that auditors should not just go by the checklist but my team has little traing on the standard (meaning have done audit traing but do not eat and sleep ISO standards). has anyone ventured into this territory? any suggestions?


"you'll find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view"

It seems to me that the OP originally was asking for something to get beyond the early/initial steps of auditing, such as you are experiencing, easttn.......

 

[Wes Bucey]

We started with our own Internal Audit Checklist 6 years ago before we became ISO 9001 certified. We have since scrapped that list because following a checklist became a crutch for our auditors and did not give a true picture of our system. We found that our auditors did not follow the processes they were auditing, only the checklist.

We do still use an audit Questionaire, but they are developed for each individual audit (by the Internal Auditors) and are approved by the Lead Auditor prior to use. The Questionaires are just a few simple questions (or notes to look for evidence) related to the processes to be audited, are based on the process, the Standard and past audit results, and are used as a jump off point to help start an audit trail. From there the auditor follows the flow of the process, gathering evidence and making sure it meets our system's requirements.

We found that allowing our Auditors to develop their own questions helped them look closer at the processes that they were auditing, and they ended up taking more interest in our systems. I've had the same problems finding interested auditors and this seems to have helped us.

I like this answer! It generally follows Deming's theory of a System of Profound Knowledge (SoPK) wherein the organization as a whole is helped when ALL the employees have a sense of the organization's Big Picture and how each employee's tasks and functions work to facilitate and enhance that Big Picture versus the Silos and Compartments less enlightened managements use to isolate the employees from learning the Big Picture.

Symptoms of these compartments and silos are narrow checklists and a strong atmosphere of "don't ask, don't tell" which pervades many organizations. At the very minimum, each employee should have a good understanding of what preceeds his function in a process and (very importantly) what follows his function in a process.

When I question a worker, the biggest red flag goes up when I hear the answer, "That's not my job, man!" Sadly, too often, an internal auditor uses a checklist as a crutch and has been inculcated with FEAR from his superiors that it is "bad" to try to learn or know anything outside of the narrow confines of the checklist.

One thing you can almost guarantee when an internal auditing team uses a detailed checklist instead of open-ended questions:
You will not get a worthwhile suggestion for an "Opportunity for Improvement."

 

[Benjamin28]

I would substitute mentoring for checklist development, much better solution.

 

[Doug Tropf]

I'd agree, Doug, if they don't support a process approach. IMHO, the examples given here don't do that in a manner that would clearly give the auditor a 'path' to follow. It's not the audit approach that's causing the problem, it's the format of the checklist..........

I too do not care for the checklist examples here or for most of the canned versions I have came across elsewhere. A process oriented checklist can be a good audit tool but should not be utilized in such a manner that restricts an auditor's assessment efforts.

Wes, I agree with your statement on the importance of using open ended audit questions, however use of a checklist and asking open ended questions are not mutually exclusive.

 

[novusqc]

I soo appreciate the fact that this forum gives many views on questions that many have on the iso standard.
When I did my audit training course one thing stood out, "dont use the checklist as a guideline but more of a guide to the audit." this was a good statement but in my company were the audits are conducted by those with the hush mouth, or its really just an inconveniance attitude its hard to get a good picture if our process is being implemented. I should follow-up by saying that my auditors have worked at my company for many years and went through the same training as myself (they are also members of management). I liked the idea of the auditors develpoing their own checklist. Id still like to create a checklist that is fairly simple to "understand". The checklists that follow the standard word for word are like german to my co-workers, auditors, and management. I have to say I havent reviewed the ones posted so far but am going to today. The only flaw is in a small comapny they stay quite busy so if i can lock in the details they need to start with i might get a better response and better input on the effective implementation of our QMS. all thoughts are appreciated and VERY useful.

 

[Helmut Jilling]

I soo appreciate the fact that this forum gives many views on questions that many have on the iso standard.
When I did my audit training course one thing stood out, "dont use the checklist as a guideline but more of a guide to the audit." this was a good statement but in my company were the audits are conducted by those with the hush mouth, or its really just an inconveniance attitude its hard to get a good picture if our process is being implemented. I should follow-up by saying that my auditors have worked at my company for many years and went through the same training as myself (they are also members of management). I liked the idea of the auditors develpoing their own checklist. Id still like to create a checklist that is fairly simple to "understand". The checklists that follow the standard word for word are like german to my co-workers, auditors, and management. I have to say I havent reviewed the ones posted so far but am going to today. The only flaw is in a small comapny they stay quite busy so if i can lock in the details they need to start with i might get a better response and better input on the effective implementation of our QMS. all thoughts are appreciated and VERY useful.

How about this:

Create a checklist for each process that identifies about a dozen or so important questions, relevant to that process.

Then, also add some open ended questions about the performance and effectiveness of that process, as indicated by the metrics being tracked for that process.

Then, add some open ended questions about following and evaluating the inputs/outputs and sequence of the process.

And, finally, add some open ended questions about common linkages to related processes, like doc control, gaging, maintenance, training, records, etc.

This little package will give a lot of guidance to a parttime auditor, but still ensure a worthwhile process approach audit is performed.

(This method is one of the techniques behind my internal auditor training seminars).

 

[novusqc]

Thank yall for the attachments . They give me a good idea were to start. Better involvement would be a major plus but since members of management are not focused on the QMS but more on what can be made or shipped I am still looking for more ideas. many thanks to all.

 

[BradM]

Easy guys, I agree with your points of view. However, until you get a few audits under your belt you don't yet know the process, much less how to audit. I was only giving a list so that someone without prior experience could utilize as a tickler (I even stated that in the post).

As any good auditor grows, they will develop their own process. IMHO that is why you all agree on not using a list; it inhibits VOB assessment trails.

My only reason to post a list is remember when you first began, any list was welcomed, at least to me it was. I was only trying to help.

You did help. Thank you for the follow-up, and your advice is very well heeded. I will keep things like that in mind.

We greatly, greatly appreciate your input, and ask that you will continue to participate.

 

[Caster]

in my company were the audits are conducted by those with the hush mouth, or its really just an inconveniance attitude its hard to get a good picture if our process is being implemented.

A lot of people have mentioned process based audits. This was the sexy add on to the last version of ISO. It's OK I guess, but to just find out if the process is working, the old ways are still sometimes the best.

Just take the documented procedure as written and turn statements in to questions. "How do you review contracts? Can you please show me an example? How about another example?"

Your procedure says there is an approved supplier list, can you show it to me? Have you taken on any new suppliers lately? How were they evaluated? Can you please show me?

You can write answers right on the procedure and keep the forms and marked up procedure as your audit working papers.

If you have read their procedure before starting the audit, a simple "can you please tell me how purchasing works" will pretty much reveal if the system has been implemented as documented.

Good luck, hang in with the Covers we mean no harm.

If you can afford the time, doing some extensive searching and reading here will let you build an amazing list of ideas. This topic has been worked over here many times before.