Internal Audit Questionnaires

A

alspread

#21
Wow! This post has drifted quite away from JasonPCSwitches original request. All great responses and all have some validity, but...

From his original post it appears that he is aware of some of the weaknesses of his approach, but he is in a spot right now where he needs to make some progress and get some momentum going on his internal audit plan. I've been in this situation once or twice myself and know what its like to try to juggle a lot of balls and I'd just like to get one of them even kind of working smoothly. I'll get back to making it a little better later.

Jason, there is a lot of debate back and forth about the use of predefined checklists, as is readily apparent from all of the great responses. With that said I like to use an audit template with established questions. However, I prompt and encourage my internal auditors to revise questions appropriately based upon the procedure and previous audit results.

I also like to phrase the questions to require the audit to collect and evaluate evidence as they go and use this evidence for other questions about the process.

For example:
My questions for an audit on the purchasing process requires the auditor to collect a number of recent purchase orders. Evaluate the purchase orders for the procedure requirements. Go back and check the requisitions and approval process for those purchase orders. Check the approved supplier list to be sure the suppliers are approved for those orders and that all of the approval documentation and process is in place. Go to receiving inspection and check the verification process for the products on those purchase orders, etc. The question are actually set up that way (i.e. Get 5 recent P.O.'s and evaluate for x, y, and z. Using the same 5 P.O.'s review the verification docuemntation for x, y, & Z. etc.)

I have found that this approach is helpful for the auditors as well, because they get to see the importance of the processes and how they inter-relate.

Good Luck
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
#22
The point still has to be answered 'why are we auditing', before we can say what tools need to be assembled for use on the audit. Simply coming up with (any) checklist which defines how any samples to take etc. is not, ultimately, going to help Jason with his real issue which is a lack of trained and somewhat competent auditors! Spoon feeding them questions won't help!
 
J

JaneB

#23
Yes, the thread is and has explored some other areas. But as Andy says:
The point still has to be answered 'why are we auditing', before we can say what tools need to be assembled for use on the audit. Simply coming up with (any) checklist which defines how any samples to take etc. is not, ultimately, going to help Jason with his real issue which is a lack of trained and somewhat competent auditors! Spoon feeding them questions won't help!
Jason only gave some very basic information in the original post. No further information has been forthcoming. In the absence of that, why would people not discuss some of the important issues around internal audit, of which the original question seems to be an example?

If someone starts a thread and then there's no response to requests for further information, continuing to guess what the situation might be is not particularly productive or even very interesting.
 
J

JaneB

#24
We clearly see - here, every day - the confusion auditors are in as a direct result of being taught external audit techniques and methods in Lead and Internal Auditor courses all around the world....

Most organizations don't (naturally) have anyone who is qualified to manage an internal audit program, past basic blocking and tackling of doing simple audits. Yet, it is a complex task, not least of which is finding and coaching candidates to perform those internal audits in an effective manner. Where do they expect these people to develop their competencies to manage an effective, value added internal audit program - worse, they often default to emulating their CB activities, since this represents the only model against which they can seek validation of their efforts!

I believe it's time for a (quiet) revolution in this whole internal auditor qualification/training industry!
Excellent post, Andy. Me too.:applause: (quiet or otherwise)
 
J

Jason PCSwitches

#25
Yes, the thread is and has explored some other areas. But as Andy says:
Jason only gave some very basic information in the original post. No further information has been forthcoming. In the absence of that, why would people not discuss some of the important issues around internal audit, of which the original question seems to be an example?

If someone starts a thread and then there's no response to requests for further information, continuing to guess what the situation might be is not particularly productive or even very interesting.

Jane, sometimes the comments get so far off topic or they provide no true value to what a poster is looking for. Could we reply further, sure but often times people tend to forget (or at least their comments appear to reflect) that most of us looking for guidance do not have a significant amount of time dealing with Quality under our belt. Some people should remember that they started off at some point themselves. Or we may not have the ideal situation to execute the best tactics. You know how difficult it is to work for companies that want the results but can't change their thinking.

In no way am I speaking negatively about the expert covers here, nor you (I love this place), us rookies just need our hand held sometimes thats all. :lmao:
 
J

JaneB

#26
Jane, sometimes the comments get so far off topic or they provide no true value to what a poster is looking for.
At times, yes. Although you'll usually find that someone, including a regular poster/moderator/Marc etc will point this out. I don't think that's happened here (do you?).

You make some good points - thanks for posting. But exploring a topic is somewhat in the nature of a public forum, no? As in having a conversation - people don't always remain rigidly on topic all the time.

After all, posting by the frequent/regulars is all done as a 'labour of love' and certainly is not a 'fee for service' type of forum, where you ask a question and my job is only to provide a specific answer to your specific question. One of the reaons that people hang around a long time (in my opinion) is because more knowledgeable and experienced people also 'get something out of' being here, which I think is also reasonable.

I and many others are usually more than happy to help rookies - it's one of the reasons we come. (Although I'm not very interested in the lazy posters who don't bother to give more than a 'help I need' post, though that wasn't the case here. The more information someone gives, the more and better help can be provided usually. But we do need certain info to help effectively, so that it becomes a dialogue rather than a guessing game based on minimal info.

Perhaps the original poster is still digesting Christmas pudding and turkey. If so, perhaps he'll return and give some more info. If not and in the meantime, why shouldn't a conversation continue?
 
D

DrM2u

#28
Aww, Andy, must you? :whip: I actually take exception to your saying that this statement is the hallmark of a true consultant. I'd like to think that a really true consultant would be honest enough to say when they don't know stuff. I do.
:argue:Jane, if you are insinuating that I am not professional enough to know my own limitations and admit when I am wrong or when I have no knowledge of a certain topic, then I am taking a very strong offense to that and I demand an apology!!! You have no idea about my background, experience and qualifications to make such an insinuation. I have expressed my oppinions and how I feel about auditing processes just like you express yours and just like everyone else in this forum. These are my oppinions (right, wrong or indiferent) and so far I have not seen any argument to make me change them. I am not passing any judgement on your qualifications based on your oppinions and I would appreciate it if you would do the same, at least as professional courtesy!
Huh? I strongly disagree. Yes, one can audit a process without 'knowing anything about it', but one will get far better results with an auditor who is also competent in the field.
One MUST have a strong understanding of the process concept to be able to effectively audit a process without knowing anything about it, regardless of what the process is. A Lean Practitioner or consultant most likely does it on a regular basis when walking into a new organization. The required competency is the understanding of the process concept (input, output and the contents of the 'black box'). Previous experience might give you a good idea about what the processes should be and look like, but rarely a full picture of the actual process. The same applies to many external and some internal auditors. A good set of tools will help the auditor tremendously in this endeavor. This is my oppinion and anyone with a strong manufacturing engineering or Lean backgound might agree with me.
Another example: I've been on site when an external auditor has come who clearly didn't have One Single Clue about what was important in an engineering consultancy business and its processes (vs straightforward engineering processes). Yikes. The result was a very sorry experience all around (and we demanded a change of auditor).
Keep in mind that not all auditors are also consultants or have previous business management experience, therefore they might not understand many of the aspects of running a business nor have the ability to look at a business as a whole. Also, just attending a Lead Auditor training course does not always result in a learning the process concept. I think someone in this thread (or maybe in another one that I am folowing) has already questioned the improvements made over time in the Lead Auditor training courses. Have you realy verified this auditor's understanding of the process concept to be able to say that this example contradicts my previous statements?!?

And this is all I have to say in this thread!
 
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