Internal Audit Questions - Accounting - ISO 9001

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#21
Re: Internal Audit Questions - ISO 9001

I don't know much about the Service organizations but in many manufacturing industries, lot of auditing activities, other than QMS, are carried out round the year, partly due to statutory obligations and partly because of industries' own (non-statutory) requirements. These are Technical Audits aimed at optimization of equipment efficiency, Energy Audits, Process Audits (aimed at optimization of industrial processes), Environmental audits, Water audits, GHG audits and the likes. None of these audits can be considered as substitutes of QMS audits although most of the processes (atleast those related to production & maintenance) are well touched upon during the course of such audits.

What if a standalone accounting firm or a financial institution wishes to get certified to ISO 9001 ? Can it not do so? If it can, what documentation would they have ? How would their Quality Manual look like ? What processes would they identify and monitor given that the 'year around statutory audits' cannot be dispensed with ? Would a CB advise them not to go for QMS certification since you already have lot of other auditing activities? I'm just curious to know If everyone in an accounting/ finance deptt. is busy with auditing (or being audited) all the time, as argued manytimes, who is left to do the actual Accounting?

I don't know why the 'accounting process' is always equated with Audits alone? Afterall, the QMS is much more than Audits. Since, a statutory accounting audit has nothing to do with Customer/ stakeholder satisfaction and process effectiveness, these audits should not be considered as a potential substitute of QMS auditing.
I think you are broadening the conversation. If an Accounting firm wishes to become certified to ISO 9001, they would define their processes just like any other company. They would then do internal audits of thoose processes. They probably would do an internal audit of the Accounting process, but perhaps just around the edges of record control, doc control, training, etc. In other words, they would probably do it like any other company. Regular internal auditors simply are not going to do a financial audit of the company books. It is a totally different auditing scheme, and they typically are not equipped to do it.
 
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S

samsung

#23
Re: Internal Audit Questions - ISO 9001

I think you are broadening the conversation. If an Accounting firm wishes to become certified to ISO 9001, they would define their processes just like any other company. They would then do internal audits of thoose processes. They probably would do an internal audit of the Accounting process, but perhaps just around the edges of record control, doc control, training, etc. In other words, they would probably do it like any other company. Regular internal auditors simply are not going to do a financial audit of the company books. It is a totally different auditing scheme, and they typically are not equipped to do it.
Exactly this is what I intended to convey. Regular internal auditors (even the CB auditors as well) need not do a financial audit in the same way as one is not supposed to do, e.g., an 'energy audit' or a 'technical audit' of the process during the course of 'internal QMS audits' because these are highly specialized areas and as such relevant subject experts are needed to accomplish such tasks and hence the 'financial audit' per se, shouldn't obviously become the epicenter of the discussion particularly when the process is seen from a QMS perspective.

There can be certain 'other' reasons leading an organization to not considering accounting or finance as a QMS process but certainly their decision for keeping it out shouldn't be based on statutory financial audits going on all round the year in these departments. Nonetheless, this argument is often strongly put whenever this point is discussed here.

Somehow I believe that it's still possible to discuss this issue (finance v/s QMS) even without dragging 'financial audits' into consideration.
 
C

Craig H.

#24
Re: Internal Audit Questions - ISO 9001

Exactly this is what I intended to convey. Regular internal auditors (even the CB auditors as well) need not do a financial audit in the same way as one is not supposed to do, e.g., an 'energy audit' or a 'technical audit' of the process during the course of 'internal QMS audits' because these are highly specialized areas and as such relevant subject experts are needed to accomplish such tasks and hence the 'financial audit' per se, shouldn't obviously become the epicenter of the discussion particularly when the process is seen from a QMS perspective.

There can be certain 'other' reasons leading an organization to not considering accounting or finance as a QMS process but certainly their decision for keeping it out shouldn't be based on statutory financial audits going on all round the year in these departments. Nonetheless, this argument is often strongly put whenever this point is discussed here.

Somehow I believe that it's still possible to discuss this issue (finance v/s QMS) even without dragging 'financial audits' into consideration.
It is a little difficult to avoid "dragging" financial audits into a discussion framed by the question "should we audit accounting?".

I tried to focus the discussion a little more specifically by pointing out the areas of overlap (A/P and A/R specifically) and I think maybe that point has been missed?

It does sound like we might agree, but semantics are tripping us up, it seems.
 
S

samsung

#25
Re: Internal Audit Questions - ISO 9001

It is a little difficult to avoid "dragging" financial audits into a discussion framed by the question "should we audit accounting?".

I tried to focus the discussion a little more specifically by pointing out the areas of overlap (A/P and A/R specifically) and I think maybe that point has been missed?

It does sound like we might agree, but semantics are tripping us up, it seems.
If the question is "should we audit accounting?", I must say we can't avoid but, however, the discussion, has generally been around "should we have accounting within the QMS framework ?". My point is 'YES' simply for the fact that this process has direct linkage, not only with suppliers & employees etc. but with external customers who buy the products.

In addition to what DrM2u has pointed out, the internal auditors, while auditing the accounting process, should also stop to see how the process makes use of the results & recommendations of various 'financial audits' as a means of continual improvement with the application of tools such as data analysis, root cause determination & taking actions, anticipating and preventing problems at the first place etc. etc.

It does sound like we might agree, but semantics are tripping us up, it seems.
Me too.
 
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