Internal Audit quiz - Auditor Qualifications and Requirements

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#21
Andy,

Which of these are unnecessary attributes of an internal auditor and why?

Ethical [fair, truthful, sincere, honest and discreet];
 Open-minded [willing to consider alternative ideas or points of view];
 Tactful [diplomatic in dealing with people];
 Observant [actively observing physical surroundings and activities];
 Perceptive[aware of and able to understand situations];
 Versatile [able to readily adapt to different situations];
 Tenacious [persistent and focused on achieving objectives];
 Decisive [reaches timely conclusions based on logical reasoning and analysis];
 Self-reliant [acts and function independently whilst interacting effectively with others];
 Fortitude [acts responsibly and ethically - prepared to disagree or confront with tact];
 Open to improvement [learns from situations, and strives for better results];
 Culturally sensitive [observant and respectful of other cultures];
 Collaborative [effectively interacts with others].

Many thanks,

John
I have yet to meet an auditor that shows all the behaviors listed above.
 
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#22
Andy,

Which of these are unnecessary attributes of an internal auditor and why?

Ethical [fair, truthful, sincere, honest and discreet];
 Open-minded [willing to consider alternative ideas or points of view];
 Tactful [diplomatic in dealing with people];
 Observant [actively observing physical surroundings and activities];
 Perceptive[aware of and able to understand situations];
 Versatile [able to readily adapt to different situations];
 Tenacious [persistent and focused on achieving objectives];
 Decisive [reaches timely conclusions based on logical reasoning and analysis];
 Self-reliant [acts and function independently whilst interacting effectively with others];
 Fortitude [acts responsibly and ethically - prepared to disagree or confront with tact];
 Open to improvement [learns from situations, and strives for better results];
 Culturally sensitive [observant and respectful of other cultures];
 Collaborative [effectively interacts with others].

Many thanks,

John
Furthermore, what's truly bizarre, is that NOWHERE does it define the attributes of an effective Management Representative - who should be all these things and more! (often because, by default they are also an internal auditor). I find it truly inconsistent with much of "ISO" that defines a long list of things for auditors, but not for anyone else with a role in the QMS. What are, for example, the attributes of an effective QMS designer?

For my part, I suspect that this - and the Audit Practices Group Guidance - is drawn up by those who see things through the "rose tinted" glasses of external auditors. Internal auditors should be more like 6 Sigma Green belts - and I see nothing as complex being described for them!
 
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John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#24
Furthermore, what's truly bizarre, is that NOWHERE does it define the attributes of an effective Management Representative - who should be all these things and more! (often because, by default they are also an internal auditor). If find it truly inconsistent with much of "ISO" that defines a long list of things for auditors, but not for anyone else with a role in the QMS. What are, for example, the attributes of an effective QMS designer?

For my part, I suspect that this - and the Audit Practices Group Guidance - is drawn up by those who see things through the "rose tinted" glasses of external auditors. Internal auditors should be more like 6 Sigma Green belts - and I see nothing as complex being described for them!
Andy,

How about starting a thread for the essential attributes of a Management Rep?

...or the System Manager?

John
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#25
In the context of an internal audit, John, an internal auditor rarely has to be "culturally sensitive". On the whole, these are attributes of an external auditor who, when visiting a client may encounter a far wider range of contexts than most internal auditors. "Fortitude" for example, is nearly a restatement about acting ethically. Open to improvement is a restatement of being "open minded. I could go on.

Internal auditors need to have some aspects of these things, given the context of internal audits. No-where have good language skills - written and verbal been covered...which is fundamental and something which many don't have!
Andy,

Yes, communication skills can be learned though.

I guess the Scouts, or some other character building organization, can develop some the other attributes.

John
 
#27
In my responses to this discussion, no doubt a hint of frustration will be noticed. My comments are borne from the fact that there's been ZERO work done to qualify or provide any tangible, useful guidance on what it takes to set up, manage and improve an ISO 9001 compliant management system. Yet, there are books and courses and qualifications and guidance documents and much debate on audits! So, we've learning NOTHING from our realization that QUALITY CAN'T BE INSPECTED INTO A PRODUCT!

We happily debate internal vs CB audits vs LPAs yet if we use the new product analogy, we're simply talking different types of QC! No one has asked "Are the designers competent? Was the manufacturing process in control? What about those people? Do they need to have lists of attributes assigned for them? Sure, internal audits are often something new, but so is setting up and running a management system! As a result, people worship the idol of "say what you do" and the great pyramid of documents - to what end? Passing a CB audit(or) - who often worshiped the same gods and sees nothing wrong...

Why make the auditor into some kind of demi-god with a list of attributes few possess - as Jan correctly and astutely points out - when others need to know nothing?
 
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Sidney Vianna

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Staff member
Admin
#28
As an internal auditor? John's list is from ISO 19011 which is heavily biased towards external auditors competencies and is, IMHO, over blown for internal auditors.
ISO 19011:2011 contains the following text:

The second edition of ISO/IEC 17021, published in 2011, was extended to transform the guidance offered in this International Standard into requirements for management system certification audits. It is in this context that this second edition of this International Standard provides guidance for all users, including small and medium-sized organizations, and concentrates on what are commonly termed ?internal audits? (first party) and ?audits conducted by customers on their suppliers? (second party). While those involved in management system certification audits follow the requirements of ISO/IEC 17021:2011, they might also find the guidance in this International Standard useful.
While it is difficult to find the PERFECT internal auditor candidate with all the attributes, there is no rreason to dismiss the proper attributes we would like to see in the individuals performing as internal auditors.

In the context of an internal audit, John, an internal auditor rarely has to be "culturally sensitive".
I beg to differ. The diversity in the workforce is just getting more pronounced, day after day. In California, it is customary to observe workforce with 6 or more ethnic, religious, racial, cultural etc background. Even as an internal auditor, people have to observe and be respectful of the diversity, in order to perform effective assessments.
 
#29
ISO 19011:2011 contains the following text:

While it is difficult to find the PERFECT internal auditor candidate with all the attributes, there is no rreason to dismiss the proper attributes we would like to see in the individuals performing as internal auditors.

I beg to differ. The diversity in the workforce is just getting more pronounced, day after day. In California, it is customary to observe workforce with 6 or more ethnic, religious, racial, cultural etc background. Even as an internal auditor, people have to observe and be respectful of the diversity, in order to perform effective assessments.
Ever heard the expression "One size fits all"? Is it true? It didn't happen to ISO 9001 - particularly in an industry you know well! Why then does everyone expect that ISO 19011 is "all that". It isn't, and anyone who has actual experience of running a true internal audit program - particularly in a small/medium sized business will attest to that.
 

Sidney Vianna

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Staff member
Admin
#30
In my opinion, there is not a single trait in the list that John B. copied from ISO 19011 that would not be a positive attribute for anyone performing as an auditor, be s/he internal or not, to the organization.

If knowledgeable people dismiss the wisdom of a consensus-based, internationally and collectively developed international standard on management systems auditing, we might open the gates for a worldwide questioning of the value of other ISO standards leading to the devaluation of the documents which created a $5 Billion/year conformity assessment sector.

Is that the message we want to send?
 
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