Internal Audit Requirements for ISO 9001 Registration

[balliso911]

Hello,
I have been tasked for the past several months with obtaining ISO 9001 certification for my company. Im sure the questions I have may seem somewhat elementary, but I greatly appreciate the help and knowledge.

With that being said, I am currently in the process of finishing up all the documented procedures. I have done a fair amount of research, internet, reading topics on this forum, a couple of books, and various contacts. The questions I have are; With me being hired on as a consultant, will I be qualified in the eyes of the registrar to perform the internal audit? Do I need any kind of "formal" training such as a classroom, online CD, powerpoint, etc... I have zero experience with ISO prior to being hired. The company i am consulting for consists of 4 employees and we dont really have the finances to outsource.

Second, does anyone recommend a registrar that services the DC area? I have contacted several through a google search but I am looking for some experienced adivse on a registrar that could best service my company. We are like i said, a small, service oriented business that provides management advise to the federal market.

Thanks in advance for any input.

 

[AndyN]

Re: Internal Audit and registration

Firstly, the auditor will never know you are a consultant - unless you have a sign on you!

But your questions are very valid, since the client will have to show you are competent. If you've little experience with this, then it's going to show in your audit results/reports. That's even if the discussion about who you are and your relationship never surfaces anything. Doing audits is very close to the CB auditor's 'heart' so it's not difficult for them to determine whether the audits are any good.

It's not a case of showing 'training', but competency and, where can you get that without attending some form of course or being mentored through the process - both of which cost money!

Small companies always struggle with this, but I can assure you that whatever is invested in auditor competency (aka training) will be paid for in a short time...

 

[KathySmith]

Full ISO 9001 for a four person company. I'm thinking I remember a barebones requirement for small companies like have a CAR, survey system and Quality Statement that satisfies most customer quality system requirements for small companies?

 

[Jen Kirley]

Full ISO 9001 for a four person company. I'm thinking I remember a barebones requirement for small companies like have a CAR, survey system and Quality Statement that satisfies most customer quality system requirements for small companies?

While it's true that I wouldn't expect the same elegance in a small organization's QMS - including its internal audit program - I do expect to see all of the standard's requirements met in some fashion. That includes internal audits because it's the organization's big chance to have objective reviews of its own performance, report to top management, and act on learnings.

 

[Big Jim]

Competency is the key, as others have clearly pointed out.

How comfortable are you with your level of understanding? Do you feel that all the studying and research has provided the knowledge needed to understand if the requirements have been met?

If you are feeling reasonably comfortable, document that self study. That provides attainment of competency at least at some level.

Even those that go through the formal classes are not always competent. There is more to it than sitting through a class. I recently audited a company who's internal auditor was totally incompetent. The nonconformances he wrote could not be understood, making it hard for the auditee to effectively respond. He called the observations he wrote nonconformances and counted them in the total of nonconformances on his report. His records were sloppy. Yet there was a 5 Day Lead Auditor's Certificate left behind to attest to his competency.

From what you have posted, you seem to be very conscientious. Do you feel you have learned enough to audit effectively? If you do, document it and go for it. I'm pretty sure you will do a better job than was done on my example.

 

[AndyN]

From what you have posted, you seem to be very conscientious. Do you feel you have learned enough to audit effectively? If you do, document it and go for it. I'm pretty sure you will do a better job than was done on my example.

As we all know, thinking we're good at an assignment and having us show someone are two different things. We all *think* we can drive, in our teenage years - and some can - but for the rest of us we have still a lot to learn over many years (and in your example, Jim, some never accomplish that enlightenment).

Competency is demonstrated - to someone else! Get someone (who knows how to audit) to come in and see how you audit. Or get on a video conference and have a discussion - the right person can discover your competency by that kind of session and a review of your audit planning and findings etc.

 

[Big Jim]

As we all know, thinking we're good at an assignment and having us show someone are two different things. We all *think* we can drive, in our teenage years - and some can - but for the rest of us we have still a lot to learn over many years (and in your example, Jim, some never accomplish that enlightenment).

Competency is demonstrated - to someone else! Get someone (who knows how to audit) to come in and see how you audit. Or get on a video conference and have a discussion - the right person can discover your competency by that kind of session and a review of your audit planning and findings etc.

Your approach would compliment mine. No need to cast it as an adversarial one.

However, how many internal auditor competency records really use your approach? Most are from records of training alone.

 

[ssz102]

say my comments: both inner audit and training must be done, but for your company actually status, you can to do simply including develop documents

 

[AndyN]

Your approach would compliment mine. No need to cast it as an adversarial one.

However, how many internal auditor competency records really use your approach? Most are from records of training alone.

Not adversarial, Jim, just higher standards! That's why I post here - to engage people in a higher standard than doing things to pass audits! I care not for what could get past a CB auditor, but what is beneficial for the organization!

 

[JaneB]

Full ISO 9001 for a four person company. I'm thinking I remember a barebones requirement for small companies like have a CAR, survey system and Quality Statement that satisfies most customer quality system requirements for small companies?

Sorry Kathy, but this just isn't correct. There's no such thing as 'full' or 'partial' ISO 9001, just ISO 9001, whether you're a large company or a smaller one. If you are certifed by an external party, you have to meet all applicable requirements, no exceptions.

But the system itself can and should be appropriate to the size of the company, which ISO 9001 also covers. I wouldn't want to put in a 'very large company' system into a very small company, or vice versa.