Internal Audit Value - What is the point of conducting internal audits to a checklist

#21
Re: Internal Audit Value - What is the point of conducting internal audits to a check

At Andy ... I hear your sentiment. But I would still stipulate that an LPA that is implemented correctly is a good thing. It helps make sure that the manufacturing 101 type stuff is being done. Especially when customers drop in orders over capacity that we always seem to agree to and everyone gets busy.

That said, I haven't seen many done right. Too often it gets a good head of steam then the answer to everything is "add another line to the LPA, that'll fix it...." Suddenly, it's a monster.
I'm often left wondering, when I read such things, "what the h*ck are the supervisors doing for their money, if we have to do LPAs?" "To make sure the manufacturing 101 stuff is being done?" So why have supervisors? What happened to effective management systems? Whatever is said about LPAs simply highlights poor management practices in other places! When WEREN'T people "busy"? Doing WHAT is the important thing - not another "tool" to keep them busier doing what they should already have BEEN doing...

From a purely Quality Professional's POV, I'm also left wondering when we'll ever get back to "doing the right things right" rather than endorsing a "tool" which has only superficial benefits (read Hawthorne Effect)...?
 
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John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#22
Re: Internal Audit Value - What is the point of conducting internal audits to a check

Basic Supervisory Training - 30 two-hour modules over 15 weeks (50:50 client time:employee time).

One of the courses I still value to most when I worked for Bechtel.

Every employee had to do it and pass the exam or leave the project.

Yes, some old timers left the project rather than be taught supervision.

We love to learn but some of us hate to be taught.
 
N

ncwalker

#23
Re: Internal Audit Value - What is the point of conducting internal audits to a check

Good points, Andy.

And I hear you about the Hawthorne Effect. But I think if an LPA system is simple and thus able to be done frequently, it will counteract Hawthorne.

And lets say it doesn't ... what's wrong with boosting performance? I mean, if I can get a performance boost from LPAs, isn't that what we want?

I totally agree. And have wondered myself why the "work ethic" seems to be gone. I used to think that it was because I was getting old. Kids these days ... and all that.

But reflecting on it, I think a large part of it is how JIT we have become. At my shop, 3 days of inventory is considered a lot. 3 days!

What that means is, we have to hit a home run almost every time. And I think this penchant for carrying near zero inventory or WIP coupled with going lean and doing less with more people results in the supervisors no longer supervising. They don't have the time to just wander around and supervise. Why? They are having to facilitate and wear many hats every time an issue arises. Because of JIT.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I think it's a good thing. But I think sometimes companies may lean down the inventory and then not recognize they may need a few more fire fighters.

I know in my day to day I frequently have to put on another hat than what they pay me for and run with the ball simply because there is no one else. And I'm not alone in my company in doing this.

So back to layered audits .... we implement ours to ensure procedures are being followed. And consider it necessary because we are scrambling so much it is easy for the shop to get in disarray. So we are essentially buddy checking each other and reminding each other to see the forest.
 
G

GKWvfr

#24
Re: Internal Audit Value - What is the point of conducting internal audits to a check

My tuppence is...

I divide my audits into two levels.
a)check-list
b)process

audits for the "check-list" level, are used only to confirm that we have measures in place to meet the requirements/elements of ISO standards, or that an operational activity is covered by a process/work instruction & risk assessment etc. i perform these audits no more than 2 times year on the same business division. these audits help us determine if extra work is needed to create working instructions/policies etc. i back these audits up with a low level of evidence (more often than not, i reference evidence such as policy/process details only)

audits for the process levels are done to ensure that staff are aware of the process and that they follow the process. this level of audit is usually backed up with more comprehensive evidence
 
N

ncwalker

#25
Re: Internal Audit Value - What is the point of conducting internal audits to a check

Hi all,

And I wanted to clarify. When I am using the term LPA, I am NOT meaning JUST TS Auditing internally to see if we are TS compliant.

Our LPAs are very much more geared to "is the process running right."

Goofy as it sounds, it has things like "hyraulic oil checked in the machine."

And "resolved quality alerts taken down."

Things we have identified as key items to be successful.
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#26
Re: Internal Audit Value - What is the point of conducting internal audits to a check

Hi all,

And I wanted to clarify. When I am using the term LPA, I am NOT meaning JUST TS Auditing internally to see if we are TS compliant.

Our LPAs are very much more geared to "is the process running right."

Goofy as it sounds, it has things like "hyraulic oil checked in the machine."

And "resolved quality alerts taken down."

Things we have identified as key items to be successful.
ncwalker,

To me this is supervision or monitoring.

It may need structure but it needs no fancy name.

John
 
N

ncwalker

#27
Re: Internal Audit Value - What is the point of conducting internal audits to a check

It needs structure, for sure.

Because it affects quality output when it doesn't have it.

As to the fancy name, well, then you have something to put on the tee-shirts ... ;-)

Again, not arguing the point that it should "just be done." It should. Reality is, if you don't let the floor know you are checking, it starts falling by the wayside.
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#28
Re: Internal Audit Value - What is the point of conducting internal audits to a check

Agreed, effective monitoring and supervision requires the people who do it to show their respect for the people and the requirements at all times; especially when the requirements need to change.

...but all this should be the normal work environment before the auditor arrives.
 
#29
Re: Internal Audit Value - What is the point of conducting internal audits to a check

Exactly so, John. It's a sad fact that industry is still only motivated by some "Messiah" who has miraculously "found" the one tool that "works" - which of course, it doesn't, it only gives the appearance of working - until the next big failure, by which time the messiah's name is forgotten and they've moved on...
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#30
Re: Internal Audit Value - What is the point of conducting internal audits to a check

Andy,

This is one of the reasons why I argue that the auditors should not be the first to enforce the requirements.

Auditors should, instead, investigate how well the management system, including monitoring per 8.2.3, helps the employees to understand and meet the requirements.

My heart sinks a little every time I see an auditor report that an employee failed to follow a procedure. With a little more thought and investigation the auditor would find the evidence of ineffective monitoring of the process.

While auditors repeatedly "blame" the employees they let supervision off the hook.

John
 
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