Internal Audit Value - What is the point of conducting internal audits to a checklist

#31
Re: Internal Audit Value - What is the point of conducting internal audits to a check

Totally agree, John. We are on exactly the same page! I find it very odd that people don't believe management and supervision have a role in explaining/encouraging/motivating/whatever people to use the management system processes and controls they have had defined for them.

To suggest that internal auditors - who are often chosen for less than stellar reasons - have any power to "ensure people are following procedures" is totally bizarre, too.

I thought, for "giggles" I'd pose the question at the IRCA (they are, after all auditors) Linkedin group, "what the purpose of internal audits?" To my amazement, no-one can answer clearly and concisely, conflating all audits with a common purpose, mixing in certification etc.

Clearly, many have never actually considered, fundamentally, why internal audits are performed...
 
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ingeneren

#32
Re: Internal Audit Value - What is the point of conducting internal audits to a check

I agree-- when having multiple internal auditors scheduled throughout the month, a checklist with a standardized reporting format keeps the audits consistant and managable. Plus it saves time because everyone is reporting out the same way, collecting the objective evidence in the same manner, so you don't have to chase the auditors down for additional information.

I also want to add that there is benifit in doing both layered process audits and internal audits- my LPAs might capture items that a TS insternal audit might not and vice-versa.

I also think that you should not use the same checklist everytime but refresh it
to reflect some of the key issues you find during the previous audits.
 
N

ncwalker

#33
Re: Internal Audit Value - What is the point of conducting internal audits to a check

Totally agree, John. We are on exactly the same page! I find it very odd that people don't believe management and supervision have a role in explaining/encouraging/motivating/whatever people to use the management system processes and controls they have had defined for them.
This is how we deploy layered process audits. We have developed procedures that the employees are supposed to follow.

But even though good habits are good, they are still habits. And they most be learned. At times this is as difficult as it is to break a bad habit.

So in our deployment of LPA, the various layers are simply going out and making sure that the procedures ARE being followed.

Totally agree that too many times management writes a procedure, issues the orders, then goes to sleep. And the employee doesn't take the "order" seriously. And then gets blamed that the order isn't followed.

Our LPA system gets management out there, looking at these things, and it does two great things:
1) It gives the employee the sense that THIS order is serious.
2) It gets the manager thinking along the lines of "is what we asked them to do working and effective?"

It's really a win-win. And back to original topic :) Yes. It's a checklist. Simply because we don't want to miss anything.
 
#34
Re: Internal Audit Value - What is the point of conducting internal audits to a check

LPAs = QC of poorly designed product. The inspector keeps rejecting the product, back to manufacturing for them to remedy, when, in fact it's the design which needs fixing! Nothing is systemically resolved. It's just the symptom all the time. There's nothing about LPAs which shouldn't already be done through other tools in the QMS toolbox. I'm guessing the 8.2.2 internal audits aren't much use...
 
N

ncwalker

#35
Re: Internal Audit Value - What is the point of conducting internal audits to a check

Yes. I agree if your sentiment is "you can't inspect quality into a part."

But "Layered Audits" is a broad umbrella. At my shop, we are NOT checking parts with layered audits. We are checking that the floor is running right. That things are being done to standards.

Indeed, checking that things that SHOULD be done, ARE being done.

Question: if you do NOT go check, then how do you know they are being done?

We have simply formalized it. Because everyone gets busy and says "I'll do that later." With it formalized, it gets done on time.

I don't agree with not having the need for checklists. The number of PPAPs I have processed myself is in the thousands, easily. I STILL use a checklist. Every PPAP. Why? Well, the biggest reason is the interruptions. I am working on a PPAP and I get called away for a fire. Because I have been working to a checklist, I then know exactly where I was when I left off.

Secondary reasons are:
1) It's a simple matter to use said checklist to communicate the deficiencies to the supply base. This saves a TON of work.
2) It shows very well when we get audited by our customers. Even the one that starts with "F" and rhymes with "bored" whom is usually known as a very tough auditor was suitably impressed with the way we do things. And did not make us do things "their" way.

I don't know, in my plant it is not a culture of "we have to check on you because we don't believe you are doing your job" and more a culture of "everyone makes mistakes, so we are going to be accountability buddies so that we succeed."

Again, if everyone agrees to the system and the system is designed well, it will work. It does not matter what that system is (within reason). But the best thing that the financial magazines all say is the way to go fails if it is poorly implemented.

Implementation ..... implementation ...... implementation .....
 
N

ncwalker

#36
Re: Internal Audit Value - What is the point of conducting internal audits to a check

Oh - and you raise a good point about things entering the "no resolution, wash, rinse, and repeat" cycle.

The answer is when they are discovered - via an audit, a measurement, or whatever - you have to have a system that tracks those to resolution. And THEN they get solved.

"But NCW, EVERYONE has these ...." In my experience, and again, I am in supplier quality, so I have been in a LOT of factories and reviewed these systems in many incarnations .... So in MY experience, IF these systems have a good feedback to closure within their structure, they work. If they do NOT they don't.

The system must have some sort of self policing designed into it. Example: if you have a database of problem reports where anyone can raise an issue initiating some sort of change, these requests will flounder unless there are two elements. 1) The initiator is the only one with the authority to close the issue, which prevents someone saying "yeah, we fixed that..." when they only THINK they did. 2) The supervisor or manager of the initiator is flagged if the "OK to Close" trigger sits. Which keeps the initiator honest.

Again, implementation .... implementation ... implementation ..... :D
 
#37
Re: Internal Audit Value - What is the point of conducting internal audits to a check

I was using a metaphor. I'm familiar with LPAs having designed and installed a program to meet the original Chrysler requirements. My point is they aren't fixing anything systemic in nature. They only do - here's the analogy - QC. It's just an inspection. Pure and simple. We've gone back a couple of decades. We used to inspect product, but now we inspect process. We have no confidence in a robust process being installed - let's not forget the real reason LPAs became the "Wunderkind" of automotive manufacturing - and everyone drinks the Coolaid because some stuff got fixed...

Of course checking has to be done, somewhat - but I'll ask again, what WERE supervisors doing before? When they wanted support, what were their management doing? And so on. It's the Emperor's clothes all over again...
 
N

ncwalker

#38
Re: Internal Audit Value - What is the point of conducting internal audits to a check

Interesting question. I don't know what they were doing before. Most likely, they thought they were doing what they believed was right.

I totally agree with the sentiment that there are many places that adopt the new-fangled scheme because it solved a problem. That drives me damn crazy sometimes. "NCW, it worked here, why won't it work again?" When they don't understand for ANY tool to work (and I mean statistical, quality, type tool) there are certain assumptions that must be met.

I also agree with the sentiment that just because it winds up on an audit, you can't think it fixed forever. You really DO have to be careful. And part of the process MUST be occasionally stop and say "hey, does this make sense?"

But here's the thing - it's not a magic bullet, but I have seen MANY times where just the aspect of getting a fresh set of eyes on the process will discover something. What were the supervisors doing before? What they thought they should. That's not always the BEST thing. Many people do things the way they do because they don't know any better and there's an obvious better way if they would just stop and think. And the key word in that last sentence is NOT "think" but rather "stop." I think people in general are smart and clever. WAY up above I was bemoaning JIT. My experience is we are too busy to STOP. There is no time to think.

Then these gemba walks or LPAs or whatever, if done right, become a requirement. Hopefully implemented in such a way that they are a bit more than a checklist and they become a requirement to STOP and think. Get you off the foot path and look at what you see every day in a different way.

I will drink THAT Koolaid all day long. :D
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#39
Re: Internal Audit Value - What is the point of conducting internal audits to a check

I'm often left wondering, when I read such things, "what the h*ck are the supervisors doing for their money, if we have to do LPAs?" "To make sure the manufacturing 101 stuff is being done?" So why have supervisors? What happened to effective management systems? Whatever is said about LPAs simply highlights poor management practices in other places! When WEREN'T people "busy"? Doing WHAT is the important thing - not another "tool" to keep them busier doing what they should already have BEEN doing...

From a purely Quality Professional's POV, I'm also left wondering when we'll ever get back to "doing the right things right" rather than endorsing a "tool" which has only superficial benefits (read Hawthorne Effect)...?
I remember the first presentation I gave at an ASQ conference - my boss asked me to pinch hit for him and the topic was about LPA....so I did a presentation on LPAs and what was wrong with them.....lol...they were expecting me to talk about how wonderful they are...so it began a bit tentatively, but I think I won them over in the end.

My point was, LPAs MIGHT be good....or they might just be a waste of time...CHRYSLER championed LPAs back in the day, and loved them..."we find a great deal of benefit and value..." Wonderful, then they SHOULD do them.... CHRYSLER, at that time, had an orchard full of low-hanging fruit... So anyone who went out on the floor with a basket was guaranteed to find a lot of low-hanging fruit. That is good ... And, it got upper management out of the office and onto the floor...that is also a good thing... It is useful for upper management to see what Production actually looks like now and then....

But, because Chrysler liked them, they made it a requirement for all suppliers...so, supplier clients who ran 0 ppm and 100% delivery all the time, whose upper managers spent lots of time on the floor anyway....now they were required to fill out a checklist periodically and follow a strict schedule and fill out forms...just to show their system was working....wasted time....

Tools are tools because they do certain things...if I need a hole, a drill is real handy. If I need a nail pounded in, a hammer works better...but, if the only thing I have is a fancy hammer...it makes a lousy hole.

An LPA is great if you have a lot of low-hanging fruit. An LPA is a great way to get management to see the floor...if they actually take the time to SEE....if they see problems and address them....makes them better...otherwise, it is just another stupid form to fill out, and makes operators more pessimistic about management.

LPAs have their place...If they are useful...and, as performance improves...they become less useful.
 
Last edited:

normzone

Trusted Information Resource
#40
Re: Internal Audit Value - What is the point of conducting internal audits to a check

Best mis-read of the day:

" Yes. I agree if your sentiment is "you can't insult quality into a part."
 
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