Internal Auditing of individuals - Can anyone suggest a format or approach?

W

willytheweeper

#1
It has recently been required by the powers that be at our plant, that we start auditing invidual staff as they go about thier daily routines / operations.
As there are no requirments for this in either iso 9000 or as9100, can anyone suggest a format or approach to this 'need' of our management.

Thanks all
:confused:
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#2
willytheweeper said:
It has recently been required by the powers that be at our plant, that we start auditing invidual staff as they go about thier daily routines / operations.
As there are no requirments for this in either iso 9000 or as9100, can anyone suggest a format or approach to this 'need' of our management.

Thanks all
:confused:
Hello Willy, welcome to the Cove! :bigwave:

I'd like more information, please.

Do I understand that your management wants unscheduled, snap audits for the purpose of finding someone doing something wrong?

Audits are supposed to be scheduled, though an auditor doesn't have the prerogative of noticing, and taking action on, things going amiss in between scheduled audits. That is, if I happen to spot a pile of red tagged material nestled among inspected, ready-for-use material when our procedure calls out for a clearly segregated holding spot (some places lock theirs up) then I, the auditor, would issue a nonconformance regardless of the audit schedule.

However, "pop audits" are generally not considered good practice because they can be perceived as a police action. They can invite resentment anf fear in the work place, which are inefficient motivators and actually some people try to hide problems in response.

There can be exceptions. If the practice is to rush around and clean things up for the sake of an audit, but errors keep happening or people keep getting hurt on a day to day basis, informal pop audits may be a response to that; an effort to find out what is really going on.

If this is the case, one needs due cause to proceed with a sense of fairness.

The object is to control processes, not police the system.
 
A

AllanJ

#3
willytheweeper said:
It has recently been required by the powers that be at our plant, that we start auditing invidual staff as they go about thier daily routines / operations.
As there are no requirments for this in either iso 9000 or as9100, can anyone suggest a format or approach to this 'need' of our management.

Thanks all
:confused:
Auditing someone going about their assigned duties equates to auditing people undertaking/ performing their processes. For that use the process approach and especially the "Task Elements" as described in other threads. Look at Wallace's postings concerning the "Process Approach".
 
W

WALLACE

#4
You may be intersted in this link at the cove. this document overviews an approach that includes an assessment of "person". http://elsmar.com//Forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3335
Taking this into consideration, your approach to this kind of assessment has to be very transparent to your staff. It seems to me that senior management's decision regarding assessing staff, is being compounded as an exploded year end staff capability review.
Since you are in a plant emvironment: what are you manufacturing and, are you in a unionised environemnt relating to the plant floor?
Wallace.

Oh, Oh: Great minds think alike Allan :rolleyes:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
W

willytheweeper

#5
Great information in your pdf Wallace - thanks for the help
To answer everyone elses questions,
1. Jennifer - these are short notice audits (normally one week notice or less) with the auditee not being decided util arrival at the chosen department.
2. Wallace - Our Company manufactures electrical components for the aerospace and autosport industries, from raw material machining to end assembly.
 

RoxaneB

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#6
willytheweeper said:
Great information in your pdf Wallace - thanks for the help
To answer everyone elses questions,
1. Jennifer - these are short notice audits (normally one week notice or less) with the auditee not being decided util arrival at the chosen department.
2. Wallace - Our Company manufactures electrical components for the aerospace and autosport industries, from raw material machining to end assembly.
There were two potentially important questions left unanswered, Willy:

  1. Are you in a unionized environment?
  2. Why are these short-notice audits being done?

Basically, what does your organization hope to gain by these short-notice audits?

Most of us involved in auditing are firm believers that auditing does not equate to policing. Our job is not to "catch" people breaking rules. Our job is to verify that the process is effective, consistent and suitable.

Short-notice audits appear to run the risk of appearing rather upsetting to the auditees...and an upset auditee is an uncomfortable auditee which leads to a poor audit.

That being said, it is not uncommon for my organization to shadow people around to observe if the steps within a key process are being adhered to properly. We enforce that we are not auditing the individual, rather this is the individual's opportunity to communicate any deficencies or opportunties for improvement within the process. With 4 rotating crews, all 4 individuals performing a task will be shadowed so that we can verify consistency amongst them. A lack of consistency implies a failure within our system and must be dealt with.

However, we schedule these audits well in advance and people are aware of when they will be shadowed.

So, again, Willy, what does your organization hope to gain from short-notice audits?
 
W

willytheweeper

#7
Roxane - I have to perform the first of these "people" audits tommorow, the method i have settled on is not unlike your description. I will be shadowing an individual throughout thier shift. The only difference being that a formal report is expected of this audit to the higher management. In response to your other questions, 1. no we are not unionzed, and, 2. only those above seem to know, that onformation has not worked its way down to the lowley ranks of the audit crew!
thanks again all for the info, when the higher powers crack the whip some more im sure i will have questions.
:whip:
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#8
I guess ALL my Deming-like instincts are on full alert here.

If the term "audit" is used for an individual, rather than the process, it smacks of "Big Brother" and "police state," not something I would willingly be a part of on either side of the equation - auditor or auditee.

In fairness, perhaps the use of the term "audit" is coloring my reaction. If we were to consider the activity one of "observation" to determine a current process and to use the current process as a benchmark for planning improvements in the process, I might be less alarmed.

The idea that an individual (rather than the process) would be graded just makes me shudder.
 
R

ralphsulser

#9
I seem to recall that when corporate "auditors" came in to do this, they were called "hatchet men". Some one at corporate had an unknown agenda, against known individuals, or were on a witch hunt.
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#10
I've got the creeps.

Unless a process takes a full shift, what I perceive you are being asked to do is an evaluation of the worker's performance.

I wonder, what else does management want to know--do these power figures want you to tell them exactly to what extent the machinery, materials and environment are influencing the outcome of the people's work during the time you shadow them?

If not, then you are not auditing a system.

If so, and the only ones to see the results are management, I would imagine the people must be nervous at best. Oh my!
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
S ISO 9001:2015 Internal Auditing Internal Auditing 8
A What are the pros and cons of using an audit software for internal auditing? General Auditing Discussions 7
S Risk based internal auditing Internal Auditing 6
F AS9100D Internal auditing requirements Internal Auditing 11
R Does any here use an internal auditing tool that works on different platforms? Internal Auditing 3
W Does anyone have an API Q2 checklist for internal auditing? Oil and Gas Industry Standards and Regulations 1
blackholequasar Internal Auditing Inspiration - Getting volunteers to perform internal audits. Internal Auditing 22
W Internal Auditing carried out by a 3rd party - Review of previous audits AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 3
S Internal Auditing for API Spec Q1 - auditor qualification requirements Oil and Gas Industry Standards and Regulations 6
E Informational Internal Audits - Wear multiple hats what can and can't I audit (so I'm not auditing my own work) Internal Auditing 149
N Online Internal Auditing Course for ISO 13485 - Suggestions ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 8
U Internal auditing - Company employees or contract second party Internal Auditing 10
K Internal Auditing - Umbrella QMS and Multiple Standards Oil and Gas Industry Standards and Regulations 4
D Auditing Our Outsourced 2nd-3rd Party Internal Audit Company ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 6
G AS9101 Rev F - Worksheets for internal auditing AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 11
S ISO 13485:2016 and MDSAP internal auditing ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 6
S ISO 9001:2015 - Internal Auditing - Audit to the Standard? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 6
R Internal Auditor auditing Internal Audit Procedure (AS9100) Internal Auditing 18
M Is Automated Internal Auditing Possible? Internal Auditing 13
C Internal Auditing Requirements (ISO 9001:2008) Internal Auditing 3
L Auditing Design and Development in ISO 9001 (Internal Audit) Internal Auditing 1
sswaim Auditing Internal Laboratory Personnel for Competence General Auditing Discussions 4
K Internal Auditing a previous Nonconformance? Internal Auditing 19
P Recommended books on ISO 27001:2013 Implementation and Internal Auditing IEC 27001 - Information Security Management Systems (ISMS) 4
M Are auditing checklists required for Internal Audits? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 13
B ISO/TS16949 Internal Auditing - How many auditors? Internal Auditing 4
B PFMEA, Internal Auditing, Corrective Action Training In Native Language (China) Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 1
Gman2 Internal Auditing Requirements before ISO 9001 Registration ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 3
S Auditing TS 16949 Cl. 7.6.3.1 - Internal Calibration Laboratory Requirements IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 8
T ISO 9001 Internal Auditing Auditor Training in Amsterdam Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 1
S In an internal auditing desert and I'm the only one here.... AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 15
G Internal Auditing in a Multi-Site Environment ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 17
B Internal Auditing of MDD and CMDR Requirements Other Medical Device Related Standards 5
O Internal Auditing in small Engineering company ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 6
T Looking for a webinar on Internal Auditing General Auditing Discussions 3
R On Auditing Internal Audit Process - How Independence can be Established Internal Auditing 4
D Auditing Abroad - Internal Audits of our European Sister Companies ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 16
R Auditing a process outside the realm of the formal Internal Audit ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 9
G New to Internal Auditing - Best questions to ask? Internal Auditing 17
M Auditing the Internal Audit Process - 8.2.2 General Auditing Discussions 2
J Auditing the Internal Auditing Process - Audit Nonconformance General Auditing Discussions 3
S Internal Auditing related to RISK Internal Auditing 9
W Internal Auditing - Observational Checklist for a Behavior Based System Internal Auditing 3
R Internal Auditing Checklist - Major NCR because the Checklist was not Completed Internal Auditing 17
V Depth of Internal Auditing and Training aspects in Research & Development (R & D) Internal Auditing 4
N Good Internal Auditing Training Courses Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 13
L Internal Auditing Reports / Documents - Design and Content Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 1
N Recommend internal auditing training 101 please (Tucson or Phoenix, AZ) Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 1
L Internal Auditing - How can I audit my QMS independently? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 12
C Internal Auditing - How to make it useful? Internal Auditing 36

Similar threads

Top Bottom