Internal Auditing without Internal Auditor Training

N

noboost4you

#11
Well our CB is the one who gave us the US Version. Apparently if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for us.
 
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Randy

Super Moderator
#12
Really, your CB gave it to you? Why did they give you a copy of an American auditing guidance document, is it required that you use it?

What's real difference between it and the "international" version? Is it recommended that auditors wear red, white and blue suspenders or drink Bud?

I'm being facetious I know, but what guidance does it contain beyond the baseline document? And if the guidance is so important why doesn't the AB for auditor training in the US (RABQSA) insist on its use instead of ISO 19011:2002 for accredited auditor training?

I know you may not have the answer, but someone will jump onto and into this I'm sure....


You have gotten the answer you need though...competence of the auditor is the issue and not formal training.
 
J

joshua_sx1

#14
…it is impossible to conduct an internal audit without Internal Auditor… but it is possible to conduct an internal audit without training your Internal Auditor…

ISO 8.2.2 clause does not state any requirements for internal audit training… but it did state that the audit criteria, scope, frequency and methods shall be defined… which means, as long the person who is going to conduct an internal audit is competent enough to know the methodology of your internal audit procedures, he/she can perform internal audit…

…now, there might be some external auditor who is going to “screw” you deeper on this aspect if you cannot support an evidence that your Internal Auditor (who performed the internal audit) is really a competent & qualified internal auditor even without taking an internal audit training…

…so to make life easier for you and your organization, give your Internal Auditors a formal internal audit trainings… not only it’ll give your Internal Auditors a confidence to perform the job, but it’ll make your organization look “committed” for providing this kind of related training…
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#15
…it is impossible to conduct an internal audit without Internal Auditor… but it is possible to conduct an internal audit without training your Internal Auditor…

ISO 8.2.2 clause does not state any requirements for internal audit training… but it did state that the audit criteria, scope, frequency and methods shall be defined… which means, as long the person who is going to conduct an internal audit is competent enough to know the methodology of your internal audit procedures, he/she can perform internal audit…

…now, there might be some external auditor who is going to “screw” you deeper on this aspect if you cannot support an evidence that your Internal Auditor (who performed the internal audit) is really a competent & qualified internal auditor even without taking an internal audit training…

…so to make life easier for you and your organization, give your Internal Auditors a formal internal audit trainings… not only it’ll give your Internal Auditors a confidence to perform the job, but it’ll make your organization look “committed” for providing this kind of related training…
ISO 19011 gives quite a bit of guidance on auditor qualifications. It would be worthwhile to read it. And, I agree, proper training is useful and worthwhile. Mandatory, unless you can demonstrate competence from the audit records alone.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#16
I also have been referencing the ISO 19011-2004 Standard in regards auditing. Our MR is very competent. He is also our VP who runs the day to day operations. He has had formal training with ISO, but on the 1994 version.
If he is already competent with ISO, I sell a audit program that might be useful for him to use to teach and guide him in a process approach. You contact me if you are interested in more info.
 
M

METerry

#17
First, thanks to all for the insight.
I have a prickly issue brought forth by our External Auditor who seems to have a particular sore spot in that our consultant cannot prove/ document training specific to Internal Auditing and we have used the consultant to help / lead internal audits, not to mention facilitate a top to bottom (and vice versa) revision of our systems (no longer a QMS but a management system). We have two people who've 'experienced' formalized IA training, one passed, one didn't. The External Auditor doesn't differentiate between the two (?) and there's been no formal (or informal) evaluation of the effectiveness of either. I can't find any (or interpret any) requirement for training regarding Internal Auditing (not to argue it's not a good idea) so I'm struggling to understand the External Auditor's problem.
I suspect that there are standards that I'm unfamilar with which have requirements for IA training and to which this particular External Auditor may audit (other clients). Is it possible he's confused?
Andy- your form is helpful; Are checklists a requirment for Internal Audits?
 
#18
First, thanks to all for the insight.
I have a prickly issue brought forth by our External Auditor who seems to have a particular sore spot in that our consultant cannot prove/ document training specific to Internal Auditing and we have used the consultant to help / lead internal audits, not to mention facilitate a top to bottom (and vice versa) revision of our systems (no longer a QMS but a management system). We have two people who've 'experienced' formalized IA training, one passed, one didn't. The External Auditor doesn't differentiate between the two (?) and there's been no formal (or informal) evaluation of the effectiveness of either. I can't find any (or interpret any) requirement for training regarding Internal Auditing (not to argue it's not a good idea) so I'm struggling to understand the External Auditor's problem.
I suspect that there are standards that I'm unfamilar with which have requirements for IA training and to which this particular External Auditor may audit (other clients). Is it possible he's confused?
Andy- your form is helpful; Are checklists a requirment for Internal Audits?
The concept and practicalities of how competency are demonstrated are often misunderstood by people. So, it's often easier for auditors to look for the simple things like training. The evidence they seek is in the results of the audit and the demonstration by you of how you've evaluated competencies. There are many threads posts where this has been discussed here at the Cove.

It does sound as if, although the External auditor is somewhat off base, you have some work to do to show auditor competency, especially for the one that didn't 'pass'.

I'm not sure why you're asking if checklists are a requirement. There's nothing in ISO 9k2k about them and ISO/TS 16949 only mentions them as a note, not a requirement. Once again this topic has been done to a crisp here. Simply put, it's unlikely that the audit will stay focused on the correct things, if the auditor doesn't use one. Especially if they're new or lacking competencies.......
 
M

METerry

#19
Thanks, Andy.
The competency of the auditor who didn't receive a passing score on the IA training has not, to my knowledge, been questioned at all, ever, by the EA (the EA seems to think it is required that training be undergone, the effectiveness of which, as determined by the exam, apparently is irrelevant).
The reason for my question regarding checklists was because your form used it as one of the points for determining competency. I didn't see a requirement or didn't interpret it that way. I think part of my problem is that I am in area between a real understanding of a quality management system, the ISO9K2K standards, and a value adding system of management. Unfortunately, many of us come to ISO 9k2k expecting a 'cookbook' with a complete listing of ingredients and steps to acheive an effective and functional system and in many cases there are offered 'cookbooks' of a one size fits all sort. I have run into the realism that there is nothing to spare us the agony and pain of developing our own system that works for us including determining our requirements for IA, in this case, as well as methods for determining competency and pushing back, to the extent neccesary, against the EA. Thanks again.
 
#20
Thanks, Andy.
The competency of the auditor who didn't receive a passing score on the IA training has not, to my knowledge, been questioned at all, ever, by the EA (the EA seems to think it is required that training be undergone, the effectiveness of which, as determined by the exam, apparently is irrelevant).
The reason for my question regarding checklists was because your form used it as one of the points for determining competency. I didn't see a requirement or didn't interpret it that way. I think part of my problem is that I am in area between a real understanding of a quality management system, the ISO9K2K standards, and a value adding system of management. Unfortunately, many of us come to ISO 9k2k expecting a 'cookbook' with a complete listing of ingredients and steps to acheive an effective and functional system and in many cases there are offered 'cookbooks' of a one size fits all sort. I have run into the realism that there is nothing to spare us the agony and pain of developing our own system that works for us including determining our requirements for IA, in this case, as well as methods for determining competency and pushing back, to the extent neccesary, against the EA. Thanks again.
So METerry, what you describe about being between a rock and an ISO place is not uncommon! you're in good hands here, though.

I put the preparation of checklists (indeed all the other things on that worksheet) because they are all basic things necessary to conduct an effective audit. Not 'requirements' as such, but experiential components based on observations of where auditors have missed out in some way from getting the most from an audit. I believe that the preparation of a checklist (not the use of pre-printed, canned lists) is fundamental in getting the auditor's mind to engage in the process they are going to audit. This will give the audit manager (or whoever is in charge of audits) a better picture of the auditor's comprehension of the task. Talking to them doesn't, IMHO, reveal their 'strategy' for the audit. The checklist can do this.
 
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