Internal Auditor auditing Internal Audit Procedure (AS9100)

Rocket27

Starting to get Involved
#1
Hi,

In our company's policy, we have an Internal Auditing Procedure. Now, the custodian of this procedure is the Management Representative. So is it acceptable to have an internal auditor audit the Management Representative, even though it's still an internal auditor auditing Internal Audits? I know that all sounds confusing, but we were told Internal Auditors cant audit Internal Auditing, but how would go about that then? Or is it acceptable given that the owner of the procedure is the Management Representative and he is not auditing himself?


Thanks for any help you can give!
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#2
Re: Internal Auditor auditing Internal Audit Procedure

What standard(s) are you auditing? Nothing says that an internal auditor can't audit internal audits. They can audit other auditors' work, but shouldn't audit their own work.
 

markl368

Involved In Discussions
#3
Re: Internal Auditor auditing Internal Audit Procedure

Ran into this with our registrar, too! As Hoste says, we made sure that the internal auditor checking our Internal Audit procedures specifically looked at audits where they had not been part of the audit team. If you're a small part of a larger company, have an internal auditor from a sister company audit your internal audit process.
 

Rocket27

Starting to get Involved
#4
Re: Internal Auditor auditing Internal Audit Procedure

We are AS9100C going to Rev. D.

Our Instructor for AS9100 Rev. D had mentioned not having an internal auditor auditing internal audits.
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#5
Re: Internal Auditor auditing Internal Audit Procedure

We are AS9100C going to Rev. D.

Our Instructor for AS9100 Rev. D had mentioned not having an internal auditor auditing internal audits.
AS9100 says:
AS9100 D clause 9.2.2 said:
The organization shall... select auditors and conduct audits to ensure objectivity and the impartiality of the audit process...
Rev C also said:
AS9100 C clause 8.2.2 said:
Auditors shall not audit their own work.
But this has been removed in Rev D.

It was acceptable for internal auditors in AS9100 Rev C to audit internal audits, and it still is acceptable in Rev D.
 
Last edited:

Rocket27

Starting to get Involved
#6
Re: Internal Auditor auditing Internal Audit Procedure

AS9100 says:

Rev C also said:

But this has been removed in Rev D.

It was acceptable for internal audits in AS9100 Rev C to audit internal audits, and it still is acceptable in Rev D.

Thank you so much for your help and your quick reply!! :)
 

Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
Trusted Information Resource
#7
We were told by our AS9100 registrar auditor - and it was backed-up by a TC176 member I asked -- that we have to have one internal auditor whose only audit is the Internal Audit Program.

I argued strongly against this but was overruled.

YMMV
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#8
We were told by our AS9100 registrar auditor - and it was backed-up by a TC176 member I asked -- that we have to have one internal auditor whose only audit is the Internal Audit Program.

I argued strongly against this but was overruled.

YMMV
I agree with you that this is ludicrous. If the authors of the standard wanted one auditor whose only job is to audit the internal audits it would have been very easy for them to plainly state that in the standard. I taught accredited AS9100 lead auditor courses for 10 years without ever teaching that, and conducted ICOP AS9100 audits for longer than that without ever interpreting it that way. If I was wrong I would hope that someone would have corrected me. :frust:
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#9
Sometimes it just takes a while for people to really catch on to changes. They just won't let go.

Keep in mind that you still need to ensure that you "select auditors and conduct audits to ensure objectivity and the impartiality of the audit process" (9.2.2c)

Being able to audit your own work and still stay objective and impartial would require a high level of integrity of the auditor as well as the culture of the organization. It can't be done in some organizations and could be in others. At least that's my perspective. I would think that an auditor would need more than just quoting 9.2.2c to call it a nonconformance.

To get around the problem of who can audit the internal audit in the past, I have seen a checklist developed and a member of top management trained on how to use it. There is no reason that you could not continue to do the same.
 
#10
Hello, first time posting on here. We were also told in our company that the person responsible for performing the internal audit should be independent of regular quality functions. In our case this is a former member of the "quality team" (comprised currently of ICAR specialist, quality manager, 2 quality engineers, and general product auditors) she is now employed in program management/ customer relations but receives the same training on the standards as the rest of us and is not part of any other audits during the year except the internal audit. We are currently AS9100 AND ISO 13485 certified.
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
S Internal Auditing for API Spec Q1 - auditor qualification requirements Oil and Gas Industry Standards and Regulations 6
T ISO 9001 Internal Auditing Auditor Training in Amsterdam Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 1
P NC from TS16949 stage 2 audit - Internal Auditing - Auditor did not record evidence General Auditing Discussions 15
T Can an Internal Auditor be involved in the process they are auditing? Internal Auditing 8
N Internal Auditing without Internal Auditor Training Internal Auditing 29
N Auditing our Third Party Internal Auditor Internal Auditing 18
J Internal Process Auditing - Auditor Unhappy - Wants Layered Process Audits Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 13
A Internal Auditor training - Recommendations regarding a video on quality auditing Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 2
I Auditing the CEO - How? What should our Internal Auditor ask? Internal Auditing 6
M Tips on preparing for IATF 16949 Internal Lead Auditor exam Manufacturing and Related Processes 1
S ISO 13485 Lead Auditor - Debate between our Quality Team and Regulatory Auditor - Internal Auditor Training ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 17
B Internal and external auditor competency to CSR's IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 20
D Impartiality of Internal Auditor ISO 9001/13485 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 18
M IATF 16949 7.2.3 Internal Auditor Competency - Trainer's competency Internal Auditing 7
C Recommendations for UK-based ISO 13485 internal auditor training ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 1
A External Auditor issue with Internal Audits Internal Auditing 7
QAQT Internal Auditor competence for ISO 14001 ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 11
S IATF 16949: Is "Certified" Internal Auditor mandatory? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 9
J Your opinion on the better training org for IATF16949 Internal auditor and Lead Auditor IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
Q Internal Auditor Training requirements for ISO 14001:2015 ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 5
E Informational I would like to get some Internal Auditor Training Internal Auditing 31
Q What is the difference between normal and licensed internal auditor? VDA Standards - Germany's Automotive Standards 9
J IATF 16949 CAR - Internal Auditor Requirements IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 15
A ISO 13485 - Internal Auditor Independence and Process Owners ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 3
Q AS 9100D internal auditor training requirements Internal Auditing 16
A Other Discussion Boards - Internal Auditor Coffee Break and Water Cooler Discussions 5
E Online training for an internal auditor to AS9120B AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 2
Q Internal Auditor Trainer's Requirement Internal Auditing 4
D IATF 16949 - Internal Auditor Training/Certification Requirements Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 2
R Internal Auditor vs. Public Accountant - Accounting Student Needing Help Career and Occupation Discussions 4
C IATF 16949 Cl. - 7.2.3 Internal Auditor Competency IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 1
C IATF 16949:2016 Cl. 7.2.3 Internal Auditor Competency Requirements IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 39
Q IATF 16949 Cl. 7.2.3 - Internal Auditor Competency and Records IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 5
Q How can an Internal Auditor Trainer's Competency be Evaluated - IATF 16949 Cl. 7.2.3 IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 7
H ISO/IATF Internal Auditor Recommendations For Manufacturer In California, USA Internal Auditing 3
Casana 2nd Party and Internal Auditor Qualifications & Training IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 13
P Problem with IATF 16949 Clause 7.2.3 Requirements (Internal Auditor Competency) IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
B Competency of Trainer for Internal Auditor Training (IATF 16949) IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 11
C ISO 13485:2016 - Internal Auditor Training vs. Lead Auditor Training Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 4
J Dinged on Internal Audits for supervising an auditor I was training Internal Auditing 10
M Internal Auditor --> Licence needed? Internal Auditing 6
V Internal Auditor Training Documents and PPT Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 5
V Internal Auditor Training Documents and PPT Internal Auditing 3
V Certified Internal auditor is necessary? ISO 9001 requirement? Quality Management System (QMS) Manuals 4
D Can the Plant Manager be our ISO Representative and an Internal Auditor? Internal Auditing 26
M ISO 13485 Audit Questions - Internal Auditor Training and other Requirements ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 10
M Questions about AS9100 Internal Auditor Training AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 14
R Can a external auditor raise a finding that is already identified in Internal Audit ? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 11
P Can internal ISO 17025 Auditor conduct ISO 9001 Audit ISO 17025 related Discussions 7
P Internal Auditor Training - Audit exercises Internal Auditing 5

Similar threads

Top Bottom