Internal Auditor lack of Competence

C

Corsair

#1
How you approach your Q.A manager and tell him that the Internal Auditor is not competent not only to the relevant Standard but with the overall knowledge for the aerospace industry.
We think that may be a comfort zone build up between the two.
Anybody experience the same situation?

:thanx:
 
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qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#3
Re: Internal Auditor lack of Competece.

Good point,
in this case this issue could come from an audit ( third party or second party).
Anothere suggestion could be to implement an internal survey to monitor the customer satisfaction of the process ( in this specific case, the internal audit process). So internal customer could express this consideration for you if they respond to the question you set in the questionnarie.
Hope this helps:bigwave:

Is the internal audit process itself being audited?
 

jerry_Malaysia

Quite Involved in Discussions
#4
Re: Internal Auditor lack of Competece.

frankly speaking, over the pass 10 years i worked, i only managed to meet a few auditors whose are really professional
i have seen so many 2nd party and even 3rd party auditors whose were not qualified at all. they qualified as the auditors simply because they attended some training and obtained some certs. but some of them do not even understand what is ca and what is pa.
so, what is the expectation we should have for internal auditors?
 
D

dknox4

#5
Re: Internal Auditor lack of Competece.

How you approach your Q.A manager and tell him that the Internal Auditor is not competent not only to the relevant Standard but with the overall knowledge for the aerospace industry.
We think that may be a comfort zone build up between the two.
Anybody experience the same situation?

:thanx:
If the auditor is incompetent I would think that audit findings, reports...etc. would expose the shortcomings. I would use these and approach the QA manager, suggesting training my be needed.
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#6
Re: Internal Auditor lack of Competece.

I am auditing a semiconductor plant to TS16949 though my background is in metals fabrication and shipboard controlled system repairs.

So I often do not understand technical details, but can still ask questions like "If you cited reliability problems in your FMEA's Potential Effects of Failure column, why did you assign that Potential Failure Mode a severity of 1 or 3?" I would be able to do the same in an aerospace supplier because I audit systems more than technical details.

But I need to have some competence to do that, and I have been required to gain education via passing a Lead Auditor class, certifying ASQ CQA, etc.

If this subject organization does not have any requirements like that, or if the auditor has completed the requirements but still exhibits inability to perform, in my view there's a bigger problem than just being chummy with someone.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#7
Re: Internal Auditor lack of Competece.

If the auditor is incompetent I would think that audit findings, reports...etc. would expose the shortcomings. I would use these and approach the QA manager, suggesting training my be needed.
Two points: first, I agree that before accusing anyone of being incompetent (or otherwise undesirable), you'd better have evidence, and strong evidence. The other thing to consider is that the QA manager already knows that the person is incompetent, which he should know if the evidence is strong enough to make the accusation. The QA manager might know it and might have chosen for his own reasons not to do anything about it, or she might be incompetent herself and not be able to recognize incompetence in an auditor.

Former Ohio State football coach Woody Hayes, when asked why his offensive scheme didn't feature more passing, famously replied, "There are only three things that can happen when you throw a pass, and two of them are bad." In similar fashion, there are only a few things that can result from notifying a manager that someone who works for him is incompetent, and only one of them is good.
 
#8
Re: Internal Auditor lack of Competece.

How you approach your Q.A manager and tell him that the Internal Auditor is not competent not only to the relevant Standard but with the overall knowledge for the aerospace industry.
We think that may be a comfort zone build up between the two.
Anybody experience the same situation?

:thanx:
Competency is an objective evaluation of the demonstrated ability to apply skills and knowledge. If the auditor in question isn't able to do this, it should be readily obvious. I'm not sure your statements are accurate - internal auditors aren't necessarily required to be fully conversant with, for example AS9100 (if that's what you mean by 'relevant Standard') or 'overall aerospace industry'. It's possibly more appropriate that they be very conversant with your business and customers requirements!
 
C

Corsair

#9
Re: Internal Auditor lack of Competence.

Gentleman, there are to many threads about this issue of competence.

But to be more specific,suppose that this person is schedule to audit clause 7.3 Design & Development and this department have problems with the design itself (bad data) in reverse engineering the part, and the preliminary report tells you that a hole pattern is off location by .003" .Don't everybody be in agreement that an internal auditor should be competent in mechanical drawings readings for example and see that the " true position" of the part in question is off tolerance and raise questions about the design itself.

As we all know, position toleracing is one of the most difficult features to inspect.

These and others issues with the D&D department were not challenge at all in that particular audit.

Somehow the Q.A manager seems to be O.K with that.
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#10
Re: Internal Auditor lack of Competence.

I rarely audit technical procedural aspects or data, usually I am auditing the system. I like to think someone besides myself is taking a role in helping to ensure the right things are happening, as I come around once a year at the most and my sample is limited as compared to what's gone on in that year.
 
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