Internal Auditor lack of Competence

#11
Re: Internal Auditor lack of Competence.

Gentleman, there are to many threads about this issue of competence.

But to be more specific,suppose that this person is schedule to audit clause 7.3 Design & Development and this department have problems with the design itself (bad data) in reverse engineering the part, and the preliminary report tells you that a hole pattern is off location by .003" .Don't everybody be in agreement that an internal auditor should be competent in mechanical drawings readings for example and see that the " true position" of the part in question is off tolerance and raise questions about the design itself.

As we all know, position toleracing is one of the most difficult features to inspect.

These and others issues with the D&D department were not challenge at all in that particular audit.

Somehow the Q.A manager seems to be O.K with that.
How would the internal auditor know to look into this? If they are being told to audit to the ISO 9001 criteria and the expectation is for them to pick up on such a fine point, the expectation is way off, in my opinion!

Who chose this auditor to audit Design? Maybe that's where the problem lies, not with competency, but with audit program management!

It's often the case that auditors are chosen from another department which is a risky situation, because of the very reasons you describe! But it has nothing to do with competency, maybe they'd be perfectly fine auditing in a department they're familiar with.
 
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SteelMaiden

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#12
Re: Internal Auditor lack of Competence.

I know lots of people who are good auditors that wouldn't necessarily be able to look at a print and tell that the design was bad. Heck, my degree is in the engineering fields (not that I have used that knowledge in the past 20 years), and I wouldn't be able to tell you that.:notme:
 
J

Jason PCSwitches

#13
Re: Internal Auditor lack of Competence.

How would the internal auditor know to look into this? If they are being told to audit to the ISO 9001 criteria and the expectation is for them to pick up on such a fine point, the expectation is way off, in my opinion!

Who chose this auditor to audit Design? Maybe that's where the problem lies, not with competency, but with audit program management!

It's often the case that auditors are chosen from another department which is a risky situation, because of the very reasons you describe! But it has nothing to do with competency, maybe they'd be perfectly fine auditing in a department they're familiar with.
I agree with Andy, while I understand the intent of the 'auditing your own work' or 'objectivity and impartiality' requirement, it may not be the most practical and effective manner in which to conduct internal audits.

If an internal auditor is assigned an audit involving a process in which they have little or no knowledge of, IMHO, it is leaving the door open for an ineffective audit, and nonconformities can easily be missed. I have witnessed this on several occasions. It provides a false sense of confidence that can result in a shock when an experienced auditor reviews and audits that process & issues non-conformities that the organization is surprised about. The unfortunate casualties, and not necessarily rightfully so, are the internal auditors, whom get dinged for incompetence and ineffective auditing when it's actually a systematic issue.

That being said, to some degree, if a company's QMS is implemented and effective, a good auditor should be able to conduct a thorough audit with the information available. :2cents:
 
R

Richard Pike

#14
Re: Internal Auditor lack of Competence.

How you approach your Q.A manager and tell him that the Internal Auditor is not competent not only to the relevant Standard but with the overall knowledge for the aerospace industry.
We think that may be a comfort zone build up between the two.
Anybody experience the same situation?

:thanx:
Look at your Organizations documented requirements for Internal Auditors. It is quite acceptable (especially at Process Owner level) to diplomatically challenge if an Internal Auditor meets the requirements laid down by your own Organization.

If you think that your Organizations requirements may have become (stale) then nobody should get upset if you suggest a review.

P>S After the Audit, do you get the opportunity to review and report on the perceived effectiveness of the Audit? (from the Process Owners Viewpoint)
 
J

John Martinez

#15
Re: Internal Auditor lack of Competence.

Gentleman, there are to many threads about this issue of competence.

But to be more specific,suppose that this person is schedule to audit clause 7.3 Design & Development and this department have problems with the design itself (bad data) in reverse engineering the part, and the preliminary report tells you that a hole pattern is off location by .003" .Don't everybody be in agreement that an internal auditor should be competent in mechanical drawings readings for example and see that the " true position" of the part in question is off tolerance and raise questions about the design itself.

As we all know, position toleracing is one of the most difficult features to inspect.

These and others issues with the D&D department were not challenge at all in that particular audit.

Somehow the Q.A manager seems to be O.K with that.

Ok, so I can not audit design unless I'm an engineer. And, I can't audit Top Management unless I have an MBA, and I can't audit Monitoring and meansurement of the product unless I'm a Quality Engineer....P.L.E.A.S.E.

There are certain requirements of ISO 9001 that lends itiself well to taking out the standard and following the bouncing ball. Any qualified internal auditor can do that with respect to 7.3. Then take how the organization applied 7.3 in practicality and following the bouncing ball and you would be suprised how effective that can be.

I was on a third audit party audit team and found myself auditing R&D for the design and manufacature of uplink and download of satellite data.

I found a Major NC when the current lead auditor who had been auditing them for the past 6 years did not find. I took out the standard, followed the bouncing ball, applied that to what the R&D department was doing and BINGO! No Validation.

My background is metals and IT.

And while we are at it, it is my humble opinion that if an internal auditor has a good foundation of auditor skills, then the auditing of ANY additional standard is just a matter or education on that standard. Yes, including AS 9100.

I'd rather have an auditor with audting skills and can be trained in knowledge on the standard, than no skills but only knowledge ANYDAY, ANYWAY, ANYTIME.

I beleve in education; however, education without practical application (i.e only theory) this worthless.
 
J

JaneB

#16
Re: Internal Auditor lack of Competence.

:topic:
Gentleman, there are ...
The world is not comprised entirely of men - there are plenty of us women on the forum. It would be nice not to be deliberately excluded or ignored via a term like 'gentlemen'.

A more inclusive term to use to address everyone would be: 'people' or 'fellow Covers'.
 
J

JaneB

#17
Re: Internal Auditor lack of Competence.

if an internal auditor has a good foundation of auditor skills, then the auditing of ANY additional standard is just a matter or education on that standard. Yes, including AS 9100.

I'd rather have an auditor with audting skills and can be trained in knowledge on the standard, than no skills but only knowledge ANYDAY, ANYWAY, ANYTIME.
Me too.:applause:
 
R

Richard Pike

#18
Re: Internal Auditor lack of Competence.

:topic:

The world is not comprised entirely of men - there are plenty of us women on the forum. It would be nice not to be deliberately excluded or ignored via a term like 'gentlemen'.

A more inclusive term to use to address everyone would be: 'people' or 'fellow Covers'.
Is that a non-conformance? especially if detection only occurred two weeks after the event? or is it a cultural issue that the Auditor should consider prior to evaluation?

The world is a multi-cultural society - and even tho some of us may not agree with some of those cultures - as consultants and auditors we are, never the less, bound to accept them and are also bound not to try and impose our own culture on others - regardless of our beliefs.
 
R

Richard Pike

#19
Re: Internal Auditor lack of Competence.

Ok, so I can not audit design unless I'm an engineer. And, I can't audit Top Management unless I have an MBA, and I can't audit Monitoring and meansurement of the product unless I'm a Quality Engineer....P.L.E.A.S.E.

You can't effectively audit design unless you have an understanding of the design process!

You can't audit Top Management unless you have an understanding of business management

You can't audit Monitoring and Measurement (of product) unless you have knowledge of quality engineering principles.


I'd rather have an auditor with audting skills and can be trained in knowledge on the standard, than no skills but only knowledge ANYDAY, ANYWAY, ANYTIME.

I,d rather have an Auditor that is FULLY competent to audit MY processes. Sorry compromise is not acceptable - either way!

The theoretical knowledge enables the Auditor to understand my Process and what it is trying to achieve (don,t say ISO compliance is what im trying to achieve P.L.E.A.S.E.)

In my opinion Auditors who are incapable of understanding the Process cause -so much - damage. Auditors without Auditing Skills - well they just get asked to leave!

I beleve in education; however, education without practical application (i.e only theory) this worthless.
Practical application is so dangerous without theoretical knowledge: Pity Deming is still not around, it was one of his favorite quotes.
 

JoCam

Trusted Information Resource
#20
Re: Internal Auditor lack of Competece.

If the auditor is incompetent I would think that audit findings, reports...etc. would expose the shortcomings. I would use these and approach the QA manager, suggesting training my be needed.
Exactly, job done.:D
 
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