Internal Auditor lack of Competence

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ChrissieO

#22
Re: Internal Auditor lack of Competence.

:topic:

The world is not comprised entirely of men - there are plenty of us women on the forum. It would be nice not to be deliberately excluded or ignored via a term like 'gentlemen'.

A more inclusive term to use to address everyone would be: 'people' or 'fellow Covers'.
Tut tut Jane, we must know our place :lmao: surely us ladies do not have any worth while comment to make in this strange world we call "Quality"

Cx
 
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Richard Pike

#23
Re: Internal Auditor lack of Competence.

Tut tut Jane, we must know our place :lmao: surely us ladies do not have any worth while comment to make in this strange world we call "Quality"

Cx
:topic:
If You say so!:notme: My experience is that by far! the best Auditors, Q Managers and Q Consultants are from the fairer sex. I employ f over m any day, far more marketable, generally more efficient and often have something to prove - which is great because in doing so they achieve more and then I make more money! So its not patronizing - its $$.
 
C

ChrissieO

#24
Re: Internal Auditor lack of Competence.

I'd rather have an auditor with audting skills and can be trained in knowledge on the standard, than no skills but only knowledge ANYDAY, ANYWAY, ANYTIME.

I beleve in education; however, education without practical application (i.e only theory) this worthless.
Have to agree, especially in this day and age where system integration is becoming a more popular stance.

I have a team of 12/13 internal auditors only four are specifically trained to TS, EMS & SMS but I would have no problem with one of my experienced quality auditors auditing 14001, 18001 or the relevant areas of TS that we need to comply to once they have are confident with the understanding of the standard.

We have to audit to 4 different standards not including customer specific requirements especially within the aerospace and marine industries. We are also working toward NIOSH approval as an extension of one of our manufacturing plants and in these days of resource shortages, I would far rather have a competent proven auditor less familiar with a particular dicipline, than someone who was highly experienced in their field of work but not a competent auditor.


Cx
 
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Richard Pike

#25
Re: Internal Auditor lack of Competence.

in these days of resource shortages, I would far rather have a competent proven auditor less familiar with a particular dicipline, than someone who was highly experienced in their field of work but not a competent auditor.


Cx
If one has to compromise - then of course a technical person - who is not a competent auditor - is next to useless - in fact can be dangerous -for Audit purposes.

I have 30 years audit experience - and am still active in that field. However there are certain industries that I simply would not be comfortable to audit (internal or external) & (regardless of preparation).

I would get through it - at least from a complacence basis ( sorry meant to say "Compliance" basis) but would I be able to add value? would I be able to predict system weaknesses? would I be able to motivate management toward improvement?- maybe - maybe not! (how big is the fee?:lol:)?

My point is - if we have to compromise - OK its a real world - but are we compromising disproportionately to other departments? If we are - then maybe the organization compromised on the Management Rep or Consultant!
 
L

ladytygrr

#26
Re: Internal Auditor lack of Competence.

I find this question interesting because I am an internal auditor, mainly for our sister company. They are certified/registered with ISO 9001:2000, API Q1 and A2LA.

I went through training to learn how to audit; however, I have never felt that I had a solid enough base from which to conduct audits. I just received an email from the Quality Manager at the sister company which states he received an email from A2LA which states, in short, to note the 3 areas to be covered in ISO 17025, section 4.14.1, as well as all elements in ISO 17025, section 4.15.1. It ends by saying "We remind you that, at the time of your renewal assessment, the assessor will review your internal audit and management review records for completeness and for compliance with ISO/IEC 17025:2005, Sections 4.14 and 4.15."

While the original poster is wondering how to tell a manager that an internal auditor is incompetent, I'm wondering how to convey to management that I don't feel that I'm qualified for this position. I was really only chosen because there was nobody else to do it, I was just starting in my position and was looking forward to the challenge. Now, I know more than ever that this must not be something that I'm cut out to do; our company is very small and I work with the GM/owner of both companies on a daily basis - how does one approach that subject without sounding lazy?!

All input would be appreciated and valued.
 
J

John Martinez

#27
Re: Internal Auditor lack of Competence.

Ok, so I can not audit design unless I'm an engineer. And, I can't audit Top Management unless I have an MBA, and I can't audit Monitoring and meansurement of the product unless I'm a Quality Engineer....P.L.E.A.S.E.

You can't effectively audit design unless you have an understanding of the design process!

You can't audit Top Management unless you have an understanding of business management

You can't audit Monitoring and Measurement (of product) unless you have knowledge of quality engineering principles.

I'd rather have an auditor with audting skills and can be trained in knowledge on the standard, than no skills but only knowledge ANYDAY, ANYWAY, ANYTIME.

I,d rather have an Auditor that is FULLY competent to audit MY processes. Sorry compromise is not acceptable - either way!

The theoretical knowledge enables the Auditor to understand my Process and what it is trying to achieve (don,t say ISO compliance is what im trying to achieve P.L.E.A.S.E.)

In my opinion Auditors who are incapable of understanding the Process cause -so much - damage. Auditors without Auditing Skills - well they just get asked to leave!

Practical application is so dangerous without theoretical knowledge: Pity Deming is still not around, it was one of his favorite quotes.
Theory without practical knowledge can be just as dangerous. If we are talking ISO 9001, then for Design, all an internal auditor has to do is follow the bouncing ball in 7.3, then move to the process documentation. Although, if the documentation only speaks theory, then I guess you do have to have an auditor that understands it. That said, if your process documentation only addresses theory, then you have bigger problems than just the internal auditor.

By the way, for the average internal auditor, try finding a group of individuals in any organization that has ALL of the capabilities you mention. Lots of luck. Again, theory, not practical application.

If you only knew how many times I received a call from a theory only engineer to purchase 5 lbs. of material that took a 40 ton melt to get. Yes, in theory this new thing-a-ma-jig works GREAT! In practicality; however, can't get it.
:biglaugh:

While I will agree an auditor should understand the process. I, in total disagree that only an engineer can audit design.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
J

John Martinez

#28
Re: Internal Auditor lack of Competence.

I find this question interesting because I am an internal auditor, mainly for our sister company. They are certified/registered with ISO 9001:2000, API Q1 and A2LA.

I went through training to learn how to audit; however, I have never felt that I had a solid enough base from which to conduct audits. I just received an email from the Quality Manager at the sister company which states he received an email from A2LA which states, in short, to note the 3 areas to be covered in ISO 17025, section 4.14.1, as well as all elements in ISO 17025, section 4.15.1. It ends by saying "We remind you that, at the time of your renewal assessment, the assessor will review your internal audit and management review records for completeness and for compliance with ISO/IEC 17025:2005, Sections 4.14 and 4.15."

While the original poster is wondering how to tell a manager that an internal auditor is incompetent, I'm wondering how to convey to management that I don't feel that I'm qualified for this position. I was really only chosen because there was nobody else to do it, I was just starting in my position and was looking forward to the challenge. Now, I know more than ever that this must not be something that I'm cut out to do; our company is very small and I work with the GM/owner of both companies on a daily basis - how does one approach that subject without sounding lazy?!

All input would be appreciated and valued.
First off, I commend you on speaking up. An audit course in and of itself does not an auditor make. You MUST have practical application such as following along with another experienced auditor. Unless you are a "born auditor" - do not know such person, then throwing you to the wolves will do nothing towards effective audit skills and techniques.

Perhaps you can direct your boss to this thread to show him.

Is your user name "Lady Tiger" or "Lady Tigger"?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
J

John Martinez

#29
Re: Internal Auditor lack of Competence.

If one has to compromise - then of course a technical person - who is not a competent auditor - is next to useless - in fact can be dangerous -for Audit purposes.

I have 30 years audit experience - and am still active in that field. However there are certain industries that I simply would not be comfortable to audit (internal or external) & (regardless of preparation).

I would get through it - at least from a complacence basis ( sorry meant to say "Compliance" basis) but would I be able to add value? would I be able to predict system weaknesses? would I be able to motivate management toward improvement?- maybe - maybe not! (how big is the fee?:lol:)?

My point is - if we have to compromise - OK its a real world - but are we compromising disproportionately to other departments? If we are - then maybe the organization compromised on the Management Rep or Consultant!
Alright. Lets get away from this new flavor of the day "adding value". If we are discussing INTERNAL AUDITS, then it is my opinion an internal audit should err on the side of an inspection. If an internal auditor can add value by OFI's, so be it; however, that is not the focus of an internal audit. The focus of an internal audit is compliance to the management system the organization put in place.

Who would you rather find the nit picking stuff. Your internal auditor or your thrid party auditor? When I perform internal audits, I put on my inspector hat and look at everything possible in the time allowed. When I perform a third party auditor, I put on my "sampling" hat as there is not enough time to look at everything. Third party is were we discuss process improvements (i.e. add value); however, I assure you, no matter which role I take, Murphy's law IS ON MY SIDE.
 
R

Richard Pike

#30
Re: Internal Auditor lack of Competence.

Alright. Lets get away from this new flavor of the day "adding value". If we are discussing INTERNAL AUDITS, then it is my opinion an internal audit should err on the side of an inspection. If an internal auditor can add value by OFI's, so be it; however, that is not the focus of an internal audit. The focus of an internal audit is compliance to the management system the organization put in place.

Who would you rather find the nit picking stuff. Your internal auditor or your thrid party auditor? When I perform internal audits, I put on my inspector hat and look at everything possible in the time allowed. When I perform a third party auditor, I put on my "sampling" hat as there is not enough time to look at everything. Third party is were we discuss process improvements (i.e. add value); however, I assure you, no matter which role I take, Murphy's law IS ON MY SIDE.

Hope you don't take offense - but I personally think you have it entirely wrong and not only missing the point of Internal Audits but perhaps missing the point of a QMS.

Adding value has never been flavor of the day (although it may have been called other things) and if you consider the Internal Auditing Function remotely connected to Inspection then it is no wonder Murphy is on your side.

PS Compliance = Complacence!
 
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