Internal Auditor lack of Competence

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#41
Re: Internal Auditor lack of Competence.

Alright. Lets get away from this new flavor of the day "adding value". If we are discussing INTERNAL AUDITS, then it is my opinion an internal audit should err on the side of an inspection. If an internal auditor can add value by OFI's, so be it; however, that is not the focus of an internal audit. The focus of an internal audit is compliance to the management system the organization put in place.

Who would you rather find the nit picking stuff. Your internal auditor or your thrid party auditor? When I perform internal audits, I put on my inspector hat and look at everything possible in the time allowed. When I perform a third party auditor, I put on my "sampling" hat as there is not enough time to look at everything. Third party is were we discuss process improvements (i.e. add value); however, I assure you, no matter which role I take, Murphy's law IS ON MY SIDE.
At the risk of piling on, I think this needs to be addressed further. What you describe as an imperative in the defining the purpose of internal audits is not imperative. We pay CB auditors to verify compliance with QMS requirements, so it only makes sense for internal audits to go beyond that. What you're describing sounds not like "inspection" but more like a search-and-destroy mission intended to provide "Gotcha!" opportunities. This might not have been your intent, but that's the way it reads.

A well-designed QMS takes the requirements of the standard into account (compliance is implicit in process design) and should allow internal auditors to (a) verify process requirements and (b) use their knowledge, experience and skills to help make things better. It's difficult, if not impossible, to make internal auditing effective so long as auditors are perceived as being obsessed with lockstep compliance and looking for trouble.
 
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John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#42
Re: Internal Auditor lack of Competence.

How you approach your Q.A manager and tell him that the Internal Auditor is not competent not only to the relevant Standard but with the overall knowledge for the aerospace industry.
We think that may be a comfort zone build up between the two.
Anybody experience the same situation?

:thanx:
Corsair,

Don't we love to accuse our auditors of incompetence? But auditors are not meant to be the experts in what the auditee does.

Indeed many auditors who are expert in what the auditee does want to advise instead of audit. Instead of asking good open questions, making no assumptions, gathering evidence, verifying facts, evaluating the evidence against the audit criteria and reporting the results they ignore the audit objective and give advice.

Newly trained and as yet not fully competent auditors may be slow to ask questions and deliver conclusions. This can be time-consuming and frustrating for the auditee especially if the unwise auditor has asked personal questions about competence.

When it comes to internal audit (or just about any other process) we are here to help each other and not to judge each other.

On the other hand the attributes of the auditor may not as recommended in ISO 19011. In which case the sooner he or she is take off the audit team the happier they will be.

John
 
C

Corsair

#43
Re: Internal Auditor lack of Competence.

John,what about when an organization is in real trouble in quality issues with their customers because they believe their auditors are competent enough?
And what about CB's credibility lately?
Don't they supposed to give us the road map for compliance?
I have to agree 100 % with Jim and Richard.

You can not venture to audit any process if you lack the overall knowldege on how that process works inside out.
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#44
Re: Internal Auditor lack of Competence.

John,what about when an organization is in real trouble in quality issues with their customers because they believe their auditors are competent enough?
And what about CB's credibility lately?
Don't they supposed to give us the road map for compliance?
I have to agree 100 % with Jim and Richard.

You can not venture to audit any process if you lack the overall knowldege on how that process works inside out.
Corsair,

No part of the system should depend on the audit process for its effectiveness or conformity. This also applies to CBs. In no way are they meant to give their certification clients "a road map for compliance". That would make them partial and diminish the value of their certificate.

All auditors should report independently on the successes of the system and the problems in the processes that have been ignored or escaped monitoring (remember clause 8.2.3?) by operators and their supervisors, managers, directors, vice presidents and the president!

The auditees are meant to be the experts in their system and how its use and improvement fulfills requirements. They should not be relying on auditors to tell them what is wrong with their system.

From what you've posted above it seems that you expect the auditors to make up for the auditees made incompetent by their system.

Kindly explain why any organization should be relying on its auditors to solve "real quality issues with its customers". Instead of waiting for an auditor the organization should be using its system to address these issues if not proactively then reactively.

John
 
R

Richard Pike

#45
Re: Internal Auditor lack of Competence.

Corsair,

No part of the system should depend on the audit process for its effectiveness or conformity. This also applies to CBs. In no way are they meant to give their certification clients "a road map for compliance". That would make them partial and diminish the value of their certificate.

All auditors should report independently on the successes of the system and the problems in the processes that have been ignored or escaped monitoring (remember clause 8.2.3?) by operators and their supervisors, managers, directors, vice presidents and the president!


The auditees are meant to be the experts in their system and how its use and improvement fulfills requirements. They should not be relying on auditors to tell them what is wrong with their system.

From what you've posted above it seems that you expect the auditors to make up for the auditees made incompetent by their system.

Kindly explain why any organization should be relying on its auditors to solve "real quality issues with its customers". Instead of waiting for an auditor the organization should be using its system to address these issues if not proactively then reactively.

John
The Auditor is supposed to identify actual weaknesses in the Management System related to the function being audited. (and cite the evidence thereto)

In terms of improvement (read Value Added) the Auditor is supposed to ASLO identify any Potential Weaknesses should the Process be operated (due to circumstances) in a way that was not observed during the Audit or that history does not adequately record..

i.e When the process is under stress, the current Management System may not be effective because ?? -- !!

This is NOT a non-conformance because no evidence can be demonstrated - however - the Auditor has a duty to comment on it - and suggest investigation and potential improvement.

With regard to Auditor "relevant process experience" . Please people :confused: - of course - the internal or external auditor - must have relevant experience.

If I have to explain a technical process to a CB Auditor in the level of detail to enable them to audit - then I will immediately request they are replaced. That is why [FONT=&quot][/FONT]reputable CB's require their Auditors to have relevant sic codes.

In respect to Internal Auditors - heck - sure, bring a "highly qualified and experienced auditor from Admin - who has never been on the shop floor - are you serious ????:bonk:

I have been auditing for over 25 years - in many industries -and I can assure you that there are many many industries that (even for internal audit) I am simply not qualified to audit. Where those instances apply (and I want the work) i spend considerable time and research (often including a pre-audit site visit) to ensure that I have sufficent knowledge to conduct an intelligent audit. Any thing alse would represent pure contempt for my client!
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#46
Re: Internal Auditor lack of Competence.

Richard,

Before issuing a preventive action request do you investigate why the system failed to prompt the auditee to initiate preventive action?

Or would you rather the system depended on you as its auditor?

John
 
R

Richard Pike

#47
Re: Internal Auditor lack of Competence.

Richard,

Before issuing a preventive action request do you investigate why the system failed to prompt the auditee to initiate preventive action?

Or would you rather the system depended on you as its auditor?

John
Its not a PA request! It is a suggestion that something may benefit from further investigation based on observations during the audit and the auditors expertise in QMS.

because Auditing is in itself a "preventive action", and

because the audit looks at thinks thro different eyes than those normally operating the process, and

because the effectiveness of QMS is what the auditor is supposed to be a specialist in, and

because of those things and not because we are taking responsibility away from the Process Owner.

In regard to the effectiveness of the QMS being reviewed and potentially improved (prevention) by the organization, (as opposed to the auditor) this is an entirely separate issue and would be commented on when auditing that particular process/requirement.
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#48
Re: Internal Auditor lack of Competence.

Its not a PA request! It is a suggestion that something may benefit from further investigation based on observations during the audit and the auditors expertise in QMS.

because Auditing is in itself a "preventive action", and

because the audit looks at thinks thro different eyes than those normally operating the process, and

because the effectiveness of QMS is what the auditor is supposed to be a specialist in, and

because of those things and not because we are taking responsibility away from the Process Owner.

In regard to the effectiveness of the QMS being reviewed and potentially improved (prevention) by the organization, (as opposed to the auditor) this is an entirely separate issue and would be commented on when auditing that particular process/requirement.
Richard,

Audit is not preventive. Like inspection it is appraisal. I refer you to the PAFF model of quality costing (also see BS 6143).

Before suggesting an improvement do you investigate why the system failed to prompt the auditee to make that improvement?

I agree that thoughtful auditors deliver value but, as a certified lead auditor since 1989, I avoid making any system depend on me.

No system should depend on its auditors for effectiveness, efficiency or conformity.

John
 
Last edited:
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Richard Pike

#50
Re: Internal Auditor lack of Competence.

Richard,

Audit is not preventive. Like inspection it is appraisal. I refer you to the PAFF model of quality costing (also see BS 6143).

Before suggesting an improvement do you investigate why the system failed to prompt the auditee to make that improvement?

I agree that thoughtful auditors deliver value but, as a certified lead auditor since 1989, I avoid making any system depend on me.

No system should depend on its auditors for effectiveness, efficiency and conformity. Please refer also to financial auditors who have a legal responsibility to report on "potential" weaknesses in the financial system.

John
We have to agree to disagree there. :nope: Internal Audit especially; is not Inspection; not even in its widest term of "Appraisal".

(Since you raised the subject :- Not that time served has any descriptive value; but I too have been Auditing since 79, am a licensed training provider to the German Society for Quality (and hence the European Organization for Quality) as well as for a number of other National & Tertiary organizations.) but as I said experience is overrated compared to current competence!

Whilst training, we make absolute and specific emphasis that Auditing is NOT Inspection as that approach is totally non-productive. I know of no Training (including IRCA and RAB) or other material that infers that it is.

The system of course MUST NOT depend on EXTERNAL Auditors, Thank God. :sarcasm:.

To use your model however, any potential weakness (not non-conformance) in the QMS must result from an inefficiency in the QMS and therefore must result in a non-conformance.

How can this be? when Internal Auditing is part of that very QMS and by inference is part of the improvement (prevention) Process?

Based on your comments, I assume you "never" make any comment other than comply or not comply. I know of not a single reputable CB who promotes that approach from its Auditors.:magic: but am always willing to learn from my peers.
 
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