Internal Auditor Qualifications - TS 16949 Clause 8.2.2.5

Baalberith

Starting to get Involved
#1
This might be a little bit of a stupid question guys, so please forgive me.

Under section 8 Measurement, analysis and improvement at 8.2.2.5, it states;
"The organization shall have internal auditors who are qualified to audit the requirements of this Technical Specification"
The company I work for are ISO9001 (ISO14001) certified, and are in the process of going for TS16949.
Audits have been carried out previously by internal auditors who are qualified as ISO9001 auditors.
Are these Internal Auditors allowed to audit against TS, to satisfy 8.2.2.5, or will they have to be qualified to TS16949 before they can undertake internal audits?
Remember - we are not yet TS approved. Therefore there was no previous requirement for the Auditors to be qualified to TS.
 
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antoine.dias

Quite Involved in Discussions
#3
Re: Internal Auditor Qualifications

Hello,

One of the requirements in ISO TS is as you already stated :
"The organization shall have internal auditors who are qualified to audit the requirements of this Technical Specification"
So one of the criteria to get ISO TS certified is to have trained ISO TS auditors.

Best regards,
Antoine
 

qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#4
Re: Internal Auditor Qualifications

This might be a little bit of a stupid question guys, so please forgive me.

Under section 8 Measurement, analysis and improvement at 8.2.2.5, it states;
"The organization shall have internal auditors who are qualified to audit the requirements of this Technical Specification"
The company I work for are ISO9001 (ISO14001) certified, and are in the process of going for TS16949.
Audits have been carried out previously by internal auditors who are qualified as ISO9001 auditors.
Are these Internal Auditors allowed to audit against TS, to satisfy 8.2.2.5, or will they have to be qualified to TS16949 before they can undertake internal audits?
Remember - we are not yet TS approved. Therefore there was no previous requirement for the Auditors to be qualified to TS.
From what you wrote, I understand you are facing the project to get ISO TS certification. In this roadmap , one of the milestone should be the qualification of the internal auditors versus the new standard, considering that you have to demonstrate that you are working under ISO TS at least since one year before applying for the certification with the CB.
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#5
Re: Internal Auditor Qualifications

This might be a little bit of a stupid question guys, so please forgive me.

Under section 8 Measurement, analysis and improvement at 8.2.2.5, it states;
"The organization shall have internal auditors who are qualified to audit the requirements of this Technical Specification"
The company I work for are ISO9001 (ISO14001) certified, and are in the process of going for TS16949.
Audits have been carried out previously by internal auditors who are qualified as ISO9001 auditors.
Are these Internal Auditors allowed to audit against TS, to satisfy 8.2.2.5, or will they have to be qualified to TS16949 before they can undertake internal audits?
Remember - we are not yet TS approved. Therefore there was no previous requirement for the Auditors to be qualified to TS.
Baalbrith,

Ensure your internal auditors also are able to apply their skills and knowledge to audit for conformity to all applicable management system standards.

You should have them demonstrate their understanding of ISO/TS 16949 requirements perhaps with examples of evidence of conformity.

In doing this you may discover one or two of your auditors are not yet competent.

John
 

TPMB4

Quite Involved in Discussions
#6
Re: Internal Auditor Qualifications

Stupid question but is it trained, qualified or competent? I mean what evidence of the internal auditor being able to audit to the TS is acceptable? If you can demonstrate that the auditor knows, understands and is able to audit for conformity to the TS is that sufficient irrespective of the level of actual training or qualification the auditor has?

No lead auditor qualification but competency can be demonstrated some other way (not sure what other way but just testing the theory it is competency not necessarily paper qualifications that is importance).

As to the OP's post it sounds like you need to be in compliance for 1 year prior to certification. In that year you need to be auditing to TS using competent internal auditors. My interpretation is competent to audit to TS not just ISO 9001 which it is based on. Perhaps you could determine those auditors who are competent, record that evidence of competency and reserve them for TS internal auditing. All others are reserved for ISO 9001 audits subject to training up to TS competency. Apart from evidence of competency to both standards a simple matrix of the standards your internal auditors can audit to. It could, for example, include other standards to such as environmental and H&S standards. I think TS includes requirements to meet regulatory requirement (not trained in TS so forgive my lack of certainty). Would that not mean the auditor needs to be able to determine whether those regulations are being met sufficiently?

To me it seems auditing to TS is a bit of a step up from ISO 9001 internal auditing.
 

Baalberith

Starting to get Involved
#7
Re: Internal Auditor Qualifications

Perhaps you could determine those auditors who are competent, record that evidence of competency and reserve them for TS internal auditing. All others are reserved for ISO 9001 audits subject to training up to TS competency. Apart from evidence of competency to both standards a simple matrix of the standards your internal auditors can audit to. It could, for example, include other standards to such as environmental and H&S standards.
I like this. A matrix listing all Auditors, showing who is "trained" to audit what. Sounds good. :)

Now a supplimentary question.

....... considering that you have to demonstrate that you are working under ISO TS at least since one year before applying for the certification with the CB.
Is there a minimum number of audits that have had to be undertaken, a minimum amount of TS sections covered by audit during this "working towards TS" year, or do all areas of the TS have to have been audited to satisfy the CB?
 
#8
Re: Internal Auditor Qualifications

Now a supplimentary question.


Is there a minimum number of audits that have had to be undertaken, a minimum amount of TS sections covered by audit during this "working towards TS" year, or do all areas of the TS have to have been audited to satisfy the CB?
No. Up to the point of the stage 1 audit by a CB, when you want to ensure you have no processes or activities which haven't (yet) been internally audited, after that, you fall back on the basic ISO 9001 requirement of "status and importance", or an CSR details. Please don't fall into the trap of starting an audit program to "satisfy a CB". You have to a) satisfy your customer (their specific requirements) and b) provide some value internally to management and the rest of the organization. If you worry about the CB and what the auditors "think", you'll go mad - and never satisfy them, because their requirements are unstated...
 

Sebastian

Trusted Information Resource
#9
Re: Internal Auditor Qualifications

Is there a minimum number of audits that have had to be undertaken, a minimum amount of TS sections covered by audit during this "working towards TS" year, or do all areas of the TS have to have been audited to satisfy the CB?
Full cycle (for system audit it means all determined acc. to 4.1 processes) of internal audits and 12 months of internal audits and performance data as it was written in 3rd edition of "Rules", but I do not have current 4th edition, so maybe someone corrects me.
 

qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#10
Re: Internal Auditor Qualifications

Full cycle (for system audit it means all determined acc. to 4.1 processes) of internal audits and 12 months of internal audits and performance data as it was written in 3rd edition of "Rules", but I do not have current 4th edition, so maybe someone corrects me.
Yes, correct. To respond to the OP , we can say that internal audit programm shall be in place for system. manufacturing and product audit. The only requirments for the auditor is that they are "qualified" ( in terms of knowledge of ISO TS requirements and customer requirements as well as the quality tools linked with ISO TS, e.g FMEA, control plan , SPC , MSA, Problem solving, PPAP, APQP etc...).
To share personal experiences, your organization may want to organize external course held by recognized body by IAFT, begin to audit vs ISO TS, make ISO TS quality culture vs all organization, help in fixing gaps vs ISO TS . An external consultant might speed up this process within at least one year before application and his /her experience coudl also raise the knowledge level of comptence and skill of your auditors'.
 
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