Internal Auditor Training - Does TS 16949 Require Formal Training or Certification?

#11
Neither the ISO standard or the TS2 specification requires formal auditor traing. Customer requirements will dictate any additional qualifications/training.
Asking the question "How do you know that your auditors are competent?" is not an intelligent question. It is the responsibility of the registrars auditor to make that determination as they audit the process.
 
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J

Jeff Frost

#12
MikeL. Our registrar and aerospace primes are concerned that auditors are competent based on requirements of standard or inposed by customer. Their contention that the person who is training internal auditors must be sufficiently trained on the standard to teach others within company.

Sam. Competence would be a valid question from auditor. ISO 9001:2000 Clause 6.2.2 a) states that “The organization shall determine the necessary competence for personnel performing work affecting product quality” and 6.2.2c) requires the organization to “evaluate the effectiveness of the actions taken”.

Something I am running into more and more is that organizations who have implemented ISO 9001:2000, AS9100B or TS 16949 have not identified the links within the standard. In the case of 8.2.2 Internal Auditing there is a link back to the requirements of 6.2.2. Both of these clauses (plus others) would be part of a internal auditing process audit (INT or EXT).
 
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V

vanputten

#13
A couple of things....

"This evaluation must be conducted by a qualified individual, i.e. one who has attended an RAB-accredited internal auditor or lead auditor course. " Must? There is no requirement for this. Keep in mind that ISO 19011 is a guideline and not a normative standard. You cannot be audited to ISO 19011 unless you have a special arrangement with a customer.

There is no reuirement in TS 16949:2002 for an internal auditor to have a training record. There is no reference to 4.2.4 for a record. The requirement is qualification, which is defined by the organization. The IATF guidance document gives a good description of this.

Following the requirements in TS and the IATF guidance doc, it is more the responsibility of the organizaiton to determine qualification; NOT the registrar. We determine "qualification" and competence for ourselves.

8.2.2.5 does not lead us to 6.2.2. It leads us to 6.2.2.2. 8.2.2.5 leads us to 6.2.2.2. That is the link.

Regards, Dirk
 
J

Jeff Frost

#14
Dirk,

Sorry please read in full the requirements of 6.2.2. You will note that this clause require the organization to determine competency needs of personnel, provide training to satisfy these need, evaluate the effectiveness of actions taken, ensure personnel are aware of the importance of their activities and how they contribute to quality objectives, and the kicker 6.2.2 e) “maintain appropriate records of education, training, skills and experience”.

Yes 6.2.2.2 is applicable to 8.2.2 and 8.2.2.5 but it does not negate the requirements of 6.2.2e). Also you must remember what the words within the standard have auditable qualities to them as stated in clause 2 and 3 of ISO 9001 or TS 16949 per ISO 9000:2000. ISO 9000 has normative status and when you check the definition of an auditor you find that an auditor (3.9.9) is a “person with the competence (3.9.12) to conduct an audit (3.9.1)”. Competence (3.9.12) is the “demonstrated ability to apply knowledge and skills.

So having just defined all this mess as an auditor I can; a) Request to see the auditor’s records of education, training, skill or experience (6.2.2e), and b) ask the organization how they have determined the “competence” of the auditor based on their operational procedure 8.2.2, imposed customer requirements and training the auditor has received.
 
#15
Jeff Frost said:
So having just defined all this mess as an auditor I can; a) Request to see the auditor’s records of education, training, skill or experience (6.2.2e), and b) ask the organization how they have determined the “competence” of the auditor based on their operational procedure 8.2.2, imposed customer requirements and training the auditor has received.
CSRs excluded, I would argue that to meet 6.2.2e), I could use the records related to internal audits as proof of competency. If those records, and other metrics of internal auditing show the system is effective, then the auditors must be competent. Attending training, although it generates records, does not meet the requirements of 6.2.2. A training record is not required by 6.2.2, the records need to reinforce 6.2.1.

Dirk's comment is correct, however, TS uses the word "qualified" in both 6.2.2.2 and 8.2.2.5. This is where some state formal training, and subsequent training records are indirectly required. I (like Dirk, I assume) disagree. If my audits are effective, then I must be competent, and competence should be what "qualifies" me.

Now, of course, customer requirements are a whole different ball game.
 
#16
db said:
CSRs excluded, I would argue that to meet 6.2.2e), I could use the records related to internal audits as proof of competency. If those records, and other metrics of internal auditing show the system is effective, then the auditors must be competent. Attending training, although it generates records, does not meet the requirements of 6.2.2. A training record is not required by 6.2.2, the records need to reinforce 6.2.1.

Dirk's comment is correct, however, TS uses the word "qualified" in both 6.2.2.2 and 8.2.2.5. This is where some state formal training, and subsequent training records are indirectly required. I (like Dirk, I assume) disagree. If my audits are effective, then I must be competent, and competence should be what "qualifies" me.

Now, of course, customer requirements are a whole different ball game.
A QMS cannot be judged effective or ineffective based on the competancy of an auditor. A QMS can be effective and still be audited by an incompetent auditor, and vice-versa. Competency is described by three traits Knowledge,skills and abilities, (KSA's).
To say that I am competent because I performed an effective audit raises the question; what is an effective audit? What are the indicators of effectivity that you can measure?
 
#17
Sam said:
A QMS cannot be judged effective or ineffective based on the competancy of an auditor.
Absolutely agree, Sam. I am making the opposite claim. That if the internal audit is effective, the auditor must be competent. The job of the auditor is to conduct effective and useful audits. If those goals are realized, the auditor would have to have done his/her job.

To say that I am competent because I performed an effective audit raises the question; what is an effective audit? What are the indicators of effectivity that you can measure?
All good questions. The metrics you choose to show effectiveness are purely up to you, but a couple I can think of might be along the lines of:

How do your internal audits compare to other audits (other internal auditor findings, 2nd or 3rd party audits)? Are the audits finding nonconformances that result in effective corrective actions? Are the audits finding opportunities for improvement that lead to a more effective/efficient QMS? Are audits being conducted to schedule?

Absent all of the above, how else would you prove your auditor's competence? A test...? Perhaps, but tests tend to show knowledge, not the ability to apply it. Competence is typically described as the ability to apply knowledge and skills. Application is demonstrated by doing.
 
V

vanputten

#18
I have a question related to this thread. If TS 16949 states in 8.2.2.5 to see also 6.2.2.2, can we assume that this pointer also includes the requirements of 6.2.2 a-e beacuase it is nearby? Or do we assume that the writers of TS 16949 specifically choose to refer us to 6.2.2.2 instead of the beginning of the Competency, awareness and training (6.2.2)? It seems to me that it was purposeful to direct us to a sub clasue of 6.2.2.2. Because 6.2.2 is very related to and near 6.2.2.2, do we include the requirements of 6.2.2 when we are spcifically referred to 6.2.2.2? I don't think the reference to 6.2.2.2 in 8.2.2.5 includes the requirements of 6.2.2. If they were supposed to be included, I think the reference in 8.2.2.5 would be 6.2.2.

Lots of twos and sixes in my question so bare with me.

Thank you, Dirk van Putten
 
#19
I agree Dirk. I think it makes logical sense for 8.2.2.5 to point directly to 6.2.2.2, specifically: "Personnel performing apecific assigned tasks shall be qualified..."
 
J

Jeff Frost

#20
You must remember that the ISO and TS standards are based on the model of a processed-based quality management system using the PDCA concept outlined in Clause (or section) 0.2 of standard. A good example of this concept is found in 4.2.1b) of standard relating to the quality manual. Example:

4.2.1b) The quality management system documentation shall include a quality manual. Though, not directly listed you can see this clause is naturally links to Clause 4.2.2 Quality Manual.

4.2.2 Quality Manual like wise is linked to the following clauses:

1.2 Application
4.1 General requirements
4.2.1General (documentation requirements)
4.3.2 Control of Documents.
4.2.4 Control of records
6.2.2.2 Training
8.2.2 Internal audit
8.3 Control of nonconforming product
8.5.2 Corrective Action
8.5.3 Preventive Action

Because in 4.2.1 you are required to:

1) Develop a document called a quality manual which is required by 4.2.1a).

2) This quality manual is a document and must be controlled through the requirements of 4.2.3.

3) within the body of the quality manual if you so choose may take exception to some requirements of clause 7 as stated in clause 1.2.

4) Within the body of the quality manual you must make reference to the documented procedures. These documented procedures are required by clause 4.2.1, 4.3.2, 4.2.4, 6.2.2, 8.2.2, 8.3, 8.5.2 and 8.5.3 of the standard.

You will find that registrars will be looking at your QMS from the perspective of the interrelated process such as Management Processes, Realization Processes, Specific (special process) Realization Processes and the Documentation Requirement Processes.

I recommend to any one implementing ISO or TS based QMS to also look at ISO 9001:2000.
 
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