Internal Auditor Training - Shadowing external auditor?

[bonterra]

As Lead Auditor for our company, I"m tasked with on-going training of our auditors. I have a new group of internal auditors and I thought it would be a good training opportunity if they could each shadow our external auditor for an hour or so. My Quality Rep disagrees. He feels it would be "uncomfortable." (Uncomfortable for himself).

I would like to get others opinions on this.

Thank you.

PS - this is my first post so if I should be doing something different, , let me know

 

[Valeri]

I also train our auditors and it is a great opportunity for them to learn through a different set of eyes. Ask your external auditor if they mind the shadow - they normally don't. While transitioning from QS to TS, I shadowed our auditor for about 6 weeks, through every plant and every process; I learned a great deal about process auditing - of course, that made me even more dangerous when performing system audits at those same plants. I can see why the management rep. may be "uncomfortable".

 

[ralphsulser]

First, welcome to the Cove and your first post is fine

I think you are correct in wanting to have your new IAs shadow the external auditor. Is your Quality rep. the same person doing the audits, and also your customer auditor. Or a 3rd party auditor, consultant, or certification auditor?
I guess it also depends on how many new auditors shadow the audit too.
But your basic premise for the shadowing would be a good learning experience.

 

[Jim Wynne]

As Lead Auditor for our company, I"m tasked with on-going training of our auditors. I have a new group of internal auditors and I thought it would be a good training opportunity if they could each shadow our external auditor for an hour or so. My Quality Rep disagrees. He feels it would be "uncomfortable." (Uncomfortable for himself).

I would like to get others opinions on this.

Thank you.

PS - this is my first post so if I should be doing something different, , let me know

Welcome to the Cove, Bonterra I'm not sure what you mean by "Quality Rep." As far as the external auditor is concerned, you're within your rights to line up everyone in the company to follow him/her around if you so choose, but it's a matter of courtesy to discuss the idea with the auditor. I see no harm in having a few people observe, so long as they keep out of the way and just watch, and ask questions later.

 

[Craig H.]

Bonterra, welcome, and a great first question!

I have done exactly that. However, having more than 2 or 3 people following the auditor around gets to be something of a traveling circus, so keep the crowd to a minimum. It is a great learning opportunity!

 

[SteelMaiden]

Where possible, I've used internal auditors as guides for surveillance audits. it works well. Internal auditors learn what the registrar is asking, how they find information etc. Plus, the registrar gets a guide that is familiar with the QMS process as well as the operations so if they need to ask where to find the next link in the audit trail, their guide will probably be able to give them an answer and get them on to the next stop without a lot of searching.

 

[RoxaneB]

Wise words have already been given regarding the number of shadows, along with proper etiquette to confirm with the external auditor ahead of time. Also consider, however, the auditees. If the auditees are nervous, just imagine their reaction when they're circled by people (even if only one is asking questions).

If you have several auditors-in-training, assign them time slots for their shadowing experience. This way, they can get back to their jobs when they're done and all of them get some exposure.

Consider, as well, allowing them to participate as a team member on an upcoming internal audit (even if you have all of the team members you need). They can help out the lead internal auditor.

 

[SailorWard]

As lead internal quality auditor for my operating unit I am tasked with escorting the external quality systems auditors (not other auditors, thankfully!). I have often invited the other internal auditors to join us for specific sections of the audit.

I do believe it is a reasonably good training opportunity, however, there is such a large difference in the goals/techniques of the external auditor vs. the internal auditor that I have to caution the internal auditors not to take it too seriously.

I don't know how it works in other organizations, but our external auditor does not have to follow a prescribed audit plan, is not accountable for providing evidence that he/she asked about every applicable clause, is generally able to jump around to his/her hearts content, etc.

When that person audits my internal audit program I am required to show evidence that I covered every applicable clause on every process, that we had and followed a specified (and, therefore, somewhat rigid) audit plan, and etc.

The result is that we cannot audit the way the external auditor audits--which limits the usefulness of shadowing the auditor.

 

[Russ]

Good Practice


This is a very good idea. We have done this several times and have found it makes for better auditors. They can learn a great deal following the external auditor around for a couple hours. I highly recommend it!

 

[Joe Cruse]

I think it's a good idea. I know it helped me quite a bit to be around our 3rd party auditor when I first started "dipping" into the quality side of the business. His method of auditing has influenced the way I've developed our system of auditing.

I say go for it. Helps you get more bang for your buck.