Internal Auditor Training - Who can train other internal auditors in the company?

A

Anton Ovsianko

Internal auditor training

May a trained and certified internal auditor train other internal auditors in his company?

If so, can it be enough to have one auditor trained by a registrar?
Who else can train internal auditors? What are the requirements for a trainer or a training body?

Anton
 
A

Al Dyer

Anton,

I'd love to help you. Please give us some more detail as to where you are in this ongoing process.

Also, if I read you correctly, good luck Papa!!!!!:bigwave:
 
A

Anton Ovsianko

Thank you Al,

I am in Russia. But the situation is hypothetical. I have just been told by a registrar. that it is not necessary to have all the auditors in a company trained by an authorized trainer - for instance a registrar. An already trained internal auditor can train his coleagues himself. It that true?

Anton
 

SteelMaiden

Super Moderator
Trusted Information Resource
Indeed, Anton, you (or someone in your organization) can provide training to your internal auditors. As long as you say what you are going to do and then follow through with it.

What our system says is:
Training may be provided by an approved vendor source, or an internal trainer with the following qualifications: Internal Auditor Training by an outside source and a minimum of 2 years auditing experience, or RAB Lead Auditor Training.

Some of my cohorts love the "teaching" parts of quality systems management, I usually take the "bring someone in and get it over with approach."

Good Luck and congratulations
 
A

Al Dyer

This is just an opinion because I'm not sure what standard or specification you are working towards.

I believe that one "formally" trained auditor is essential but not required. Many companies hire out their internal audit function.

In my mind, auditing technique takes precident over actual bare bones knowledge of the standards or specifications in question.

That said,

Someone in the organization needs to know the specifics of the system and how they come into play during any type of audit. This is usually the role of the Management Representative.
 
D

David Mullins

Re: Internal auditor training

Originally posted by Anton Ovsianko
May a trined and certified internal auditor train other internal auditors in his company?
If so, can it be enough to have one auditor trained by a registrar?
Who else can train internal auditors? what are the requirements for a trainer or a training body?

1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. Anyone that can demonstrate competency as an auditor and trainer. (i.e. has the demonstrable skills and experience - and qualifications help)
4. Different countries have different trainer recognition programs. In Australia the lowest recognised level is called "workplace trainer - category one", and is a four day competency (there's that word again) based course which gets you a certificate to say you're a trainer (but not an assessor - that's category two!). These types of courses are generally offered by the lowest rung of tertiary institutions - but are good value.
 

Marc

Fully vaccinated are you?
Leader
> I believe that one "formally" trained auditor is essential
> but not required. Many companies hire out their internal
> audit function

Not required is the 'key' word. At least, not by the standard. Someone may have been trained internally at another company and hired in. What the requirement is that you demonstrate that the auditor have some type of combination of training, education, experience.

This said, it is a possiblility that the registrar themselves require it. That's an aspect people seldom talk about. I haven't seen it with respect to auditor training (except in QS situations which tend to push for formal training and 'certification') but one never knows. Registrars do throw in some weird stuff.

When I do an implementation I usually do an internal training course over 2 days. There's always a 'leader' targeted by management to run the show so to that person it's also a 'train the trainer' situation. I also give them the data files for the course. From that they do their future training internally. They generally are asked to read the course and then accompany an auditor on a couple of audits. The auditor then gives the 'OK' and the person's training record is updated to include proficiency displayed by working through the 2 or 3 audits. Like watch the first audit and then do the next audit while the 'trainer' follows if you're doing a 2 step process.
 

Marc

Fully vaccinated are you?
Leader
BTW - There's some related info in the following thread to think about. http://Elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=2332

I don't know if ISO 19011 is being seriously pushed anywhere on any scale.

The ASQ also has their CQA - Certified Quality Auditor program.

I think the formal training programs focus on compliance to the standard as opposed to systems / process audits. I'm not a fan of internal auditors being focused on compliance audits. I would want them focused upon process and systems audits which are more streight forward and meaningful IMHO.
 

CarolX

Trusted Information Resource
need $1.00 worth

Hello all,

I need a little input here, because I am not real sure about this. I have been contracting out my internal audits. Now, becuase of $ flow issues, we (the powers that be) want to bring this function in house. I want to use the person that assisted me in our ISO registration process. Although he has no background in "Quality" or "Auditing" he knows the system very well, knows how we operate, and I know he could be very effective as an internal auditor. To satisfy the requirements of 9K94, does he need formal training? I thought maybe I could have my contracted auditor qualify this guy.

Any thoughts, suggestiions and inputs are most graciously appreciated.
(sound like a little :ca: kissing!!)

Thanks all,
CarolX


P.S. Marc, a search is definately a good thing!!!! That's how I got to this thread!!!!
 

E Wall

Just Me!
Trusted Information Resource
Inernal Programs

Carol, We never contracted out this task, but we did revamp our requirements...so I'll tell ya what we did (and internal auditing is strictly by what process/procedure your company defines - not dictated - so long as you meet the standard requirements). That said, here goes:

What we had set up =
Auditor Training
All personnel selected as internal auditors shall have completed with one of the following training regimes:

Successful completion of a Lead Assessor Training Course.

Successful completion of the GNB Columbus Internal Auditor Certification Course. (This was non-existant except in theory)

Successful completion of an Internal Audit course. The Quality Assurance Manager must approve the course prior to course participation.

Recognition as an ASQC Certified Quality Auditor (CQA).

What we have now =
Statements are mostly still there, some new verbage... but I customized a canned 'Internal Auditing Training Program' that we purchased from Technicomp. They will send you a demo for evaluation (if you request one). The training kit (purchased) contains: Video tape, Overhead, Instructor Manual (complete with recommendations for techniques, breaks, and activities), Participant's Guides, and sample Company X policies and procedures...which is the part that was customized.

I now facilitate all Internal Auditor Training, and since I manage the auditing program that is great! Additionally, I feel by having an interal program, using our own documentation as examples, the auditors apply the knowledge immediately, get a better grasp of it for long-term retention of the knowledge, and they are also more concience about their own work and processes.

I know many here expound the virtues of hiring the process out, but since I've never exerienced it I cannot fairly say how they would compare. The common problem even we face is not having enough auditors. Our goal is to have sufficient auditors so they each lead 1-2 audits a year and may participate in others as needed or available. We currently have 8 trained internal auditors and I get so much more consistancy from those 4 that I trained! Eventually the goal is for the others to attend a refresher class. We do follow the same procedures...but the ones not internally trained are the one coming up with not-so-creative-reasons for not following it correctly and you should hear the catawailing when I insist any documentation is redone correctly!

Any...another novel from me...sorry so long
 
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