Internal Auditors shall not audit their own work?

S

Seizetem

#1
Hi there, I am an Internal Auditor and I need some clarification in terms of Internal Audit conduct.

We are under one roof, QA Department, composed of;
Documentation Section
QMS section (where, I belong, main reponsibility is auditing)
QA/QC inspection
Calibration Section

My question is can I audit the Calibration Section (ISO 9001:2008) without violating the clause 8.2.2. Auditors shall not audit their own work.....

Thank you.:bigwave:
 
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T

TigerLilie

#3
Question related to this topic. In our organization we used to hire an external consultant to audit our internal audits, CARs, and SCARs. However, management is looking to cut costs and eliminate the consultant performing these duties. Ultimately our registrar will audit this documentation anyway.
But just in case, there is no requirement in the 9001:2008 standard requiring the audit of audits, CARs, and SCARs, correct? I did not see any in the standard, but I wanted to solicit the opinions of my colleagues.
 
T

Tara Monson

#4
The standard states that you must audit to determine if the QMS conforms to the planned arrangements, the standard, and the QMS requirements established.

This would include your audits, CARs, etc....as these are part of your QMS.
 
#5
Question related to this topic. In our organization we used to hire an external consultant to audit our internal audits, CARs, and SCARs. However, management is looking to cut costs and eliminate the consultant performing these duties. Ultimately our registrar will audit this documentation anyway.
But just in case, there is no requirement in the 9001:2008 standard requiring the audit of audits, CARs, and SCARs, correct? I did not see any in the standard, but I wanted to solicit the opinions of my colleagues.
Tigerlilie: You cannot consider the registrar audit as an internal audit - that won't fly. Secondly, it doesn't say explicitly, by name, but of course you have to audit those things! You have to audit the "processes and areas" to ensure they comply etc.

I'm wondering why your management aren't seeing any value from the audits - doesn't matter who does them, but HOW WELL they are done. You may wish to look at how effectively your audits are being done. If management doesn't see any value (want to reduce "costs"), they aren't seeing the value and THAT should be a worry...
 
T

TigerLilie

#6
Thank you Tara. I wonder if this requirement is handled internally in most organizations? I am relatively new to the Quality field, and after the latest reduction in force, I am the only Quality team left member in our organization.
 
#7
Hi there, I am an Internal Auditor and I need some clarification in terms of Internal Audit conduct.

We are under one roof, QA Department, composed of;
Documentation Section
QMS section (where, I belong, main reponsibility is auditing)
QA/QC inspection
Calibration Section

My question is can I audit the Calibration Section (ISO 9001:2008) without violating the clause 8.2.2. Auditors shall not audit their own work.....

Thank you.:bigwave:
If you touched it, you can't audit it. If others also do calibrations, then it would make sense for you to do the audit to see if they followed the process (because you should know what you are looking for) and as long as you remain unbiased...
 
#8
Thank you Tara. I wonder if this requirement is handled internally in most organizations? I am relatively new to the Quality field, and after the latest reduction in force, I am the only Quality team left member in our organization.
"Most organizations" is difficult to answer. You have to do it, so the choice is HOW. Some organizations leave it to an outsider because, overall, it's more efficient. Some develop internal resources to take care of internal audits. Whatever, the management team need to see a return from investing in either approach.
 
T

TigerLilie

#9
Thank you all for your responses. Some very good points in this thread I did not consider. I will be addressing this issue management.
 

insect warfare

QA=Question Authority
Trusted Information Resource
#10
If you touched it, you can't audit it. If others also do calibrations, then it would make sense for you to do the audit to see if they followed the process (because you should know what you are looking for) and as long as you remain unbiased...
Agree....

A really easy way to interpret the requirement "Auditors shall not audit their own work" is to say "Auditors shall not audit their own records". There have been times where I have written a documented procedure (for which I have no ownership of the process, but may have participated in that process) and then later used that procedure to audit that process (to see how effectively the process was being followed). As long as you are not using your own records as audit evidence to generate audit findings, you can remain unbiased in that regard.

Hope this helps the OP....

Brian :rolleyes:
 
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