Internal Audits - Can I do them all?

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#41
Partly, it's true. I also suggest that the root of much of what's also wrong with internal audits is the bias of auditor training towards external techniques - in particular the accredited ones! Simply, if auditor training were focused in a similar manner to SSGB training, management would get results, whatever they expected...
In a global organization I am the only full time, dedicated internal auditor. All the other sites, plus the corporate office, recruit teams of people doing this-or-that occasional audit as a collateral duty.

As such I can vouch I really regret the focus on conformity to the standard's elements and the lack of focus on effectiveness. I call it the "kicking the tires" approach to auditing that's darned near a waste of time. But I find myself constantly having to defend the full-time audit approach, though I can point to many examples of one system audit "learning from the other" and my audits have been known to find issues where one fix can solve a problem affecting five different departments at once.

Sadly, I do not think there are all that many people who can do it the same way and now that I've been given document control etc., I am not able to do it as well either.

It all boils down to how much the organization's management values auditing. Last week, while sitting with the site's top managers in prep for this coming week's audit, I got a sick feeling while they chortled among each other about how they BS the auditor and draw out the time by wandering off into stories. I knew they didn't care all that much for the function, it's just hard to sit there and listen to it being displayed so openly.
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
#42
Like it or not, my people don't lay out in spec what "status and importance" means. But we can describe it whenever asked, which is at least once a year per registration audit.

I think it's the CB auditor's responsibility to notice ineffective implementation, such as a process audit's frequency not being sped up after the previous year's nonconformance, or conversely, effectiveness if the schedule does indeed show that sensitivity. Not only that, the CB auditor is responsible to notice if an audit manager can't talk to the subject.

But the standard specifies these things. Surely, a more difficult task is spotting and arguing ineffectiveness without evidence of a consequence to rote, glassy-eyed attention to conformity alone.
I totally and utterly agree, Jennifer! You have, in one clear statement, hit the proverbial nail on its head! The auditing community hasn't, in the vast majority, moved to a position of being capable of reporting on effectiveness!
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#43
Friends,

The new version of ISO 9001:XXXX, must state:

"All determined processes of the Quality Management System shall be subject to an internal audit at least once a year. This audit shall demonstrate the effectiveness, efficiency, and continual improvement of each determined process."

Now we're on the right track....:agree1:

Stijloor.
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#44
Friends,

The new version of ISO 9001:XXXX, must state:

"All determined processes of the Quality Management System shall be subject to an internal audit at least once a year. This audit shall demonstrate the effectiveness, efficiency, and continual improvement of each determined process."

Now we're on the right track....:agree1:

Stijloor.
Or words to that effect.

It would be beneficial to tighten things up a bit.
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#45
You have, in one clear statement, hit the proverbial nail on its head! The auditing community hasn't, in the vast majority, moved to a position of being capable of reporting on effectiveness!
So sorry it took me so long! :lol:

One of the most important pieces of experiences I have in my tool box is a stint as Examiner for my state's version of the Baldrige Award. The award process puts a focus on effectiveness and connection between the categories, and it uses a team approach in determining and reporting effectiveness. (One guy in my team called me Jennifer "the hammer" Kirley"! :lol:) In using the team approach we avoid the arbitrary-looking effect of having a single person swoop in, do a round of audits, and declare this-or-that based on his/her limited exposure to the processes. No wonder management doesn't put much stock into it!

My big source of stress is not forgetting what I had then, and asking more of what I do than almost anyone else. To be fair, there are people who appreciate my approach besides my own manager. I have asked them for references. :D
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#48
I hope to see that taken care of in ISO 19011. After all, what's the point in having a guidance document, when it's mute on the point. In fact, ISO 9004 is more helpful!
Regrettably, most ISO guidance documents such as the ones you mentioned are completely ignored by those who could greatly benefit from them. If the audit requirements in 8.2.2 are not tightened up, it is not going to happen...

Stijloor.
 
#49
Regrettably, most ISO guidance documents such as the ones you mentioned are completely ignored by those who could greatly benefit from them. If the audit requirements in 8.2.2 are not tightened up, it is not going to happen...

Stijloor.
Yup, that's the sad bit! However, the accreditation requirements rely heavily on that document, so I'd hope the 'next generation' of auditor courses might have more in them to address the needs of internal audits and their management.
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#50
Stijloor is correct, there isn't enough attention on ISO 19011. But I would venture to say most organizations don't even know it exists, and even if they did they see no profit in doing what it suggests. They are after fulfillment of requirements, which registration to the standard unfortunately promotes though it, and those of us associated with it, almost always wish for at least a little bit more.
 
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