Internal Audits - Can I do them all?

Sidney Vianna

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#51
Regrettably, most ISO guidance documents such as the ones you mentioned are completely ignored by those who could greatly benefit from them.
Once again, that's because the vast majority of "users" of the ISO 9000 family of the documents are in the receiving end of a certification "mandate" and they could care less about anything they are not forced to adopt.
If the audit requirements in 8.2.2 are not tightened up, it is not going to happen...
Requirements that are not enforced are the same as non-existent requirements. For many reasons, there are SEVERAL requirements of ISO 9001 that simply are never enforced. Internally nor externally. That's why we need much more robust CONFORMITY ASSESSMENT practices. Any standard is as good as the means to ensure it is effectively implemented. Just like any law/regulation that has no enforcing mechanisms is destined to oblivion.
 
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maggylu168

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#52
As the new version of ISO 9001:2015, that internal auditors are not allowed to audit his/her own work was removed. Does anyone help explain the reason? For IATF 16949: 2106, the software development capability assessments shall be included in IA program. Can we use auto-spice level estimation to substitute this? The clause also emphasize to review the "effectiveness" of the audit program. We used to show NC counts by different plants before. It is not a good indicators to show the effectiveness by trend chart. Need your help for better metrics as well.

Thank you.
 

AMIT BALLAL

Trusted Information Resource
#53
As the new version of ISO 9001:2015, that internal auditors are not allowed to audit his/her own work was removed. Does anyone help explain the reason? For IATF 16949: 2106, the software development capability assessments shall be included in IA program. Can we use auto-spice level estimation to substitute this? The clause also emphasize to review the "effectiveness" of the audit program. We used to show NC counts by different plants before. It is not a good indicators to show the effectiveness by trend chart. Need your help for better metrics as well.

Thank you.
My thoughts:

I think, as long as objectivity and impartiality of the audit is maintained, auditor can audit his own process. Sometimes it happens that other people are not familiar with the process to be audited, therefore objective of the audit couldn't be fulfilled by these auditors. In such case self verification is comparatively better.

Therefore in order to fulfill objective of the audit, the requirement might have been removed. But now its upto us about how we maintain impartiality of the audit.
:2cents:

Thanks,
Amit
 
Last edited:

Sebastian

Trusted Information Resource
#54
As the new version of ISO 9001:2015, that internal auditors are not allowed to audit his/her own work was removed. Does anyone help explain the reason?
9.2.2 c includes two key words "objectivity" and "impartiality". There is no need to say "do not audit own job". It is obvious.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#55
It's because it was finally realized that Quality auditors aren't automatically liars, cheat, thieves and lacking in integrity. (As I have taught in a hundred auditor training courses).

The only standards with the auditors not being able to audit their own work have been the quality ones
 
J

Julie O

#56
When anyone audits their own work (whether "anyone" is an individual or a department), that is quality control. When someone else audits it, that is quality assurance. A comprehensive and effective quality system requires both.
 
J

Julie O

#57
It's because it was finally realized that Quality auditors aren't automatically liars, cheat, thieves and lacking in integrity.
If so, it means that this has now moved out of the hands of those who understand that objectivity and impartiality have little to do with the character of the auditor and into the hands of those who think it's all about the character of the auditor.

If that is the case, it does not bode well for quality going forward.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#58
When anyone audits their own work (whether "anyone" is an individual or a department), that is quality control. When someone else audits it, that is quality assurance. A comprehensive and effective quality system requires both.
Requires? -- NO

Should? -- Maybe

Would benefit from -- More likely


Don't create your own requirements for the standard!
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#59
If so, it means that this has now moved out of the hands of those who understand that objectivity and impartiality have little to do with the character of the auditor and into the hands of those who think it's all about the character of the auditor.

If that is the case, it does not bode well for quality going forward.
Not at all. It simply made a correction from being overbearing to realistic.
 
J

Julie O

#60
Jim, I stand by "requires." What is actually required for a comprehensive and effective quality system is not determined by any standard. A standard can at best aspire to capture what is actually required.
 
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