Internal Audits - Can I do them all?

J

Julie O

#61
NoIt simply made a correction from being overbearing to realistic.
Another way of saying it that it backed off of requiring a comprehensive and effective quality system, because, realistically, companies didn't want to pay for one.
 
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Sebastian

Trusted Information Resource
#62
When anyone audits their own work (whether "anyone" is an individual or a department), that is quality control.
I would not use word "audit" together with with "own work" in one sentence. "Check", "monitor", "control", but not "audit".


If so, it means that this has now moved out of the hands of those who understand that objectivity and impartiality have little to do with the character of the auditor and into the hands of those who think it's all about the character of the auditor.

If that is the case, it does not bode well for quality going forward.
I do not see any movement here. Requirement is related to selection of auditors and I guess, person who will select auditors under 2015 (ISO) edition also has done this job under 2008 (ISO) edition.
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#63
Jim, I stand by "requires." What is actually required for a comprehensive and effective quality system is not determined by any standard. A standard can at best aspire to capture what is actually required.
And so by your own admission you make up your own rules.

Stay within the standard.
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#64
Another way of saying it that it backed off of requiring a comprehensive and effective quality system, because, realistically, companies didn't want to pay for one.
Not at all.

Those are your "other words" and not mine.

This is another example of making your own rules instead of following the standard. In this case throwing up a smoke screen to mask what you are doing.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#65
If so, it means that this has now moved out of the hands of those who understand that objectivity and impartiality have little to do with the character of the auditor and into the hands of those who think it's all about the character of the auditor.

If that is the case, it does not bode well for quality going forward.
WRONG! The updated version is exactly the one that has been applicable for ISO 14001 since 1996 and the same as OHSAS 18001 and other ISO management standards like OHSAS 50001 and RC14001.
 

maggylu168

Involved In Discussions
#66
I would like to thank you all for your inputs. Here I look up a guidance to explain 9.2.2 (C) and want to share with you.
To ensure the objectivity and impartiality, the internal auditor should not audit his/her own work in general situation. Only under some circumstance like small size company or professional position, the auditors can audit their own work. In such case, the auditor should co-work with his/her colleague or supervisors to assess the audit results to ensure the objectivity and impartiality.
Sounds like what only happens in an ideal world. Or does it actually mean witness audit?
 

Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
Trusted Information Resource
#67
ISO9001/AS9100 says we "shall select auditors and conduct audits to ensure objectivity and the impartiality of the audit process".

Guidance doc ISO9002-2016 says "In some cases, specifically in smaller organizations or areas of the organization where specific job knowledge is required, it can be necessary for a person to audit their own work. In this situation, the organization might have the internal auditor work with a peer, or have the results reviewed by a peer or a manager, to ensure results are impartial. The organization could also consider obtaining resources from an external provider such as a university, external auditor, or another
organization."

The reality is, I know our registrar auditors well enough, having been through this kind of discussion with them before, that if someone audits their own work there will be hell to pay and it may well be impossible to convince them it is not a NC, short of maybe showing them where an auditor wrote up a NC on themselves. YMMV.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#68
Tell your Registrar auditors to kiss your patootie and show you the shall, or ask them to leave due to their creating personal requirements (I'm doing an audit right now for that exact reason, the previous auditor making stuff up)

Additionally, smaller organizations may not have a peer to look over the internal auditor's shoulder.
 

Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
Trusted Information Resource
#69
I made my arguments, but the decision was made above me -- upper management felt it was easier and cheaper to concede the point and give him what he wanted, so we did.

But auditors who create shalls out of thin air are one of my biggest pet peeves.
 
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