Internal Audits not performed - Useful data from internal audit schedule

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Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#12
You could do what we do and just alter the audit schedule to match the audits actually being done as you go. The non-conformance from an outside auditor is a catch 22. You may want it (an external audit finding) to leverage areas to hold firm in their audit dates, however, it may also point that the quality dept in charge of doing the audits are not doing their jobs. In the distant past I have been reprimanded from my own management for being inflexible when I wanted to write up certain areas for bumping out audits, some as long as a year!
Why would one willingly and knowingly falsify the audit schedule?
Possible lack of top management commitment to the audit process?

Both are serious nonconformities.

Stijloor.
 
#13
You know how I get on my soapbox about creating a schedule of audits out for the whole year...............? This is one of the reasons!

It has no relevance to the business cycle, so doesn't get supported! But do CB audtors 'buy off' on the idea? - you bet!

Take my advice - forget ISO 19011, read ISO 9004 - Internal audits!
 
C

confused1

#14
Why would one willingly and knowingly falsify the audit schedule?
Possible lack of top management commitment to the audit process?

Both are serious nonconformities.

Stijloor.
One would not necessilary need to Falsify the audit schedule, that is an unacceptable practice for any auditor. -MUCH more serious than a nonconformity.

(I also do not think that was the intent of the post) But there is no reason the schedule can be modified for future audits.

As far as lack of management commitment, it may be beneficial for one to ask why.

People do things for a reason -it only makes sense that they don't do things for a reason- so what is the reason?

With the exception of non-profits, most companies exist to make a profit.

If I were in top management , I would ask -How does this activity (including internal audits) help the bottom line / help me reach my goal?

I haven't been down this road far but...

Hope this helps
 

bobdoering

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#15
Generally, I have found not meeting internal audits a priority issue. If it is not a priority, there will not by systems in place to ensure the resources are available, and the management direction that the audits must be done. Look, if your boss or their boss was to walk up to you and question you why your audits are late, would that have any impact on your priorities? Are the internal audits spread across enough people to make the task reasonable?

Shoot, folks, we are not even talking about layered audits. That takes even more resources and discipline. But, you know what? When these things are part of the customer requirements, you are getting paid to do them as a part of your product payment. It may not seem that way, and you might not have priced that overhead into your product (whose fault is that?) If ISO9001 is a customer requirement for your business, then these audits are an obligation no different than putting the product in a box.

If it is not a customer requirement, and your company does not have the management commitment to properly maintain the system, then why bother with it at all? :soap:

By the way - this is just a rhetorical point, not a point specifically for your situation, Selena. :cool:
 
S

selena15

#16
hi all and :thanx: for the argue :D
i don't have this kind of worry bobdoering , should i ?

look chaosweary, this is what actually they did even the schedule wasn't updated. it is hard to me to follow up this audits activities if i don't have schedule and so ( by instance, i discoverd by accident that one internal auditor made one audit in one of our sites and when i asked about the report, he said that he did it just for him and refuse to give to audit report or more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

for me this is NC to not respect the planning because this schedule was planned according the process which effect and need to be audit but also according the available time of the people! isn't it ?

and also as what stijloor said it can came from lack commitment of the top managment or the concerned people as well, and this fact can have impact to the activity or just show the general mind of the staff about this topic.

and about what you said Andyn concerning the ISO 9004, i came back to it and i read " ...the planning of the internal audits is flexible in order to allow changes of priority on the basis of of the observations and tangible proofs obtained at the time of audit."
i'm not quiet sure to be able to explain you this point but for me it isn't relating to the shcedule itself flexibility. someone can figure it out for me :tg:
 

bobdoering

Stop X-bar/R Madness!!
Trusted Information Resource
#17
i don't have this kind of worry bobdoering , should i ?
Well, you are a little closer to your situation, so I will leave it up to you if any of those things apply. :notme:

by instance, i discoverd by accident that one internal auditor made one audit in one of our sites and when i asked about the report, he said that he did it just for him and refuse to give to audit report or more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What in the heck? :eek: Well, can't take credit for that one, but there is a cultural issue here - I do not know if it is a fear of being honest, fear of reprisal for finding things. I just do not know. The culture should be one of "thanks for finding this stuff, I will work on fixing it right away."

Something funny is going on here... and not "ha ha" funny. :cool:
 
S

selena15

#18
:argue: i don't know if it is cultural or no, i heard this here several time !!!!!!!! if it is true, in this case there is several culture to be involved because; the top managment is european!!
in my previous job, which was located also here, the staff was also from this country and i never saw this kind of behafs !!!!! this is why i have some reservation about this :notme:;)

to come back to this beharfs; there is kind of war between the managers and lot of interest.
let's this in one side and answer please to my quierries :tg:
 

bobdoering

Stop X-bar/R Madness!!
Trusted Information Resource
#19
I do not mean international culture - far from it. The term really is "corporate culture" is the general culture or environment of the company itself. It is belief system within the company of what it feels important, how it is shared with employees and how they react to it. It is what is acceptable to do or not do "because that is how this company does things!" In some ways there may be influence by the international cultures, but the issue in implementing and maintaining quality systems is whether the company has a fundamental belief it is need versus a belief that it is just extra work. The specific actions you need to take to resolve a problem, such as not following an internal audit schedule, has to take into account the "corporate culture" to be effective. Some cases, an "excuse me, you forgot to do your audit" will work, in others "You need to understand these audits are a part of your job. If you are not willing to fulfill the responsibilities of your job then we have a problem here." So, the answer to your question does have some basis in this concept. Even if the management issue does not apply to your situation (which is up to you), it may to others who look to this thread to answer a similar question. We would be remiss to gloss over it. So, it is nothing personal and may be relevant - to somebody.

Hopefully that clears up any misunderstanding. :cool:
 
S

selena15

#20
:) when you are talking about corporate culture, this is very good point and confusing as well and i'll tell why!
to me when one company decide and communicate it commitment to establish a quality system within the organisation, even their culture have to follow up this movment because finaly, i'm not just talking about to make it easy to employees:tg:, but mainly in order to avoid to get such as NC as this or another ones which can have incident into the customer satisfaction.

(in instance: our goods can be infested and in order to avoid this, the best wat to prevent stay to clean up the area where the goods are storage and keep it clean mainly because of the dust occured by some step of production or kind of. but sometimes, in some site so far from the back office and in some temporary storage area, the employee take it easy and aren't so inflexible concerning this topic as they should be, even they got a trainning, several remark....etc.) this fact have tuff impact in our customer satisfaction because if the infestation occured, into the goods which is already packaged and ready to be sent to the market. it would be the customer which descover this infected goods!
this is what confused, because i'm aware that the profit is the target to any company and it can just not care of some view as this behave, but this kind of fact can have incident in the profit , and not to keep remarking, send NC.. without to make it more tuff, isn't it?:nopity:
 
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