Internal Audits save you from Non-Conformances on external audits?

B

bigtroy40

#1
While taking a class over the past week, it was mentioned by the instructor numerous times that if you had an internal audit finding for a certain item in your company that the auditor could not give you a non-conformance for the same item when they did your external audit. Is this true? Also if this stands true, is this for only open audit findings that have not been closed, or even closed items that they find are still wrong? Thanks for the help.
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Staff member
Super Moderator
#2
While taking a class over the past week, it was mentioned by the instructor numerous times that if you had an internal audit finding for a certain item in your company that the auditor could not give you a non-conformance for the same item when they did your external audit. Is this true? Also if this stands true, is this for only open audit findings that have not been closed, or even closed items that they find are still wrong? Thanks for the help.
I moved your post to this forum which addresses Auditing subjects.


In my opinion, under normal circumstances, if something was found to be outside of the standard, during an internal audit, and it was documented and an Corrective Action plan implemented, the External Auditor wouldn't identify it on their report.

If there was a Corrective Action plan which identified correction and the implementation date, and it wasn't completed, than in my opinion, if I was the External Auditor, I would document the finding under the Corrective and Preventative sections of the standard in which the audit was performed.
 

SteelMaiden

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#3
it was mentioned by the instructor numerous times that if you had an internal audit finding for a certain item in your company that the auditor could not give you a non-conformance for the same item when they did your external audit.
I'm not sure about the CAN NOT part. Most will not, because you have identified it. I am sure that if you've identified it and then not done anything about it (we'd never do that, would we?) that they'd write it up. Like Coury, I believe that under normal circumstances most registrars will not issue a CAR. Mine never have.
 
B

bigtroy40

#4
I agree with both of you on the subject. I could not see that just becuase you have an internal audit finding than you couldn't get anything wrong. Our internal audit team would become NC "maniacs" if that was the case. :whip: I glimpsed through the 19011 standard and didn't find anything stating that either. Thanks for all the help!
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#5
While taking a class over the past week, it was mentioned by the instructor numerous times that if you had an internal audit finding for a certain item in your company that the auditor could not give you a non-conformance for the same item when they did your external audit. Is this true?
If an internal audit has identified a nonconforming condition and the fix is in process, then the external auditor shouldn't cite the original condition as a nonconformance in his audit.

Also if this stands true, is this for only open audit findings that have not been closed, or even closed items that they find are still wrong? Thanks for the help.
If an internal audit finding has gone through the CA process and has been closed at the time of the external audit, but the auditor discovers that the CA didn't work, a finding is in order. It might not include the actual original NC, though; the finding might cite ineffectiveness of the CA process.
 

Ajit Basrur

Staff member
Admin
#6
While taking a class over the past week, it was mentioned by the instructor numerous times that if you had an internal audit finding for a certain item in your company that the auditor could not give you a non-conformance for the same item when they did your external audit. Is this true? Also if this stands true, is this for only open audit findings that have not been closed, or even closed items that they find are still wrong? Thanks for the help.
Welcome to the Cove, Bigtroy40.

I agree with the other responses. But its upto the external auditor on how he sees it. If the NC is well addressed through an effective Corrective Action and a solid Preventative Action, there is less likelihood that he would raise a NC again.

The entire intent of audits is towards the improvement of the system and not to gain pride in increasing the total no of NCs.
 
C

chergh - 2008

#7
Surely it would depend on that nature on the non-conformance.

If the NC is something major, something that would affect your registration e.g. no document control system (not a realistic example but illustrates my point I believe), then surely it wouldn't matter if you have a CA plan in place or not your not going to pass the audit until the plan has been completed and you are compliant with requirement of the standard.

For NC's which are not such show stoppers then I agree with the above.
 

SteelMaiden

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#8
Our internal audit team would become NC "maniacs" if that was the case. :whip: I glimpsed through the 19011 standard and didn't find anything stating that either. Thanks for all the help!
ummmm....I am not sure what you mean by this. Things are either nonconforming or not. Your internal audit team should identify nonconformances. It is your job to make sure that they know the difference between a nonconformance and an opportunity. If I even thought that my internal audit team was identifying nonconformances and NOT issueing a CAR on them, I'd be doing some remedial training.

I have seen internal auditors issue, or try to issue, dozens of CARS on related nonconformances and the PA/CA system overloaded with bs. If this is the case, you need to explain that one CAR can take care of the same problem in different areas, or various infractions against one clause can be issued as one nonconformance against that clause i.e. if Sue doesn't put the tag on the product to show it failed, and Roy didn't input the information into the computer it can be one nonconformance for failing to identify nonconforming product not two because it was two different people in two different locations.

This stuff is all (un)common sense. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if you p!$$ off enough people, you won't get any "buy in" from your employees. Someone, usually the MR or a separate lead auditor, whatever yo have availiable to you, has to stay on top of these things to make sure you strike a balance.
 

Crusader

Trusted Information Resource
#9
While taking a class over the past week, it was mentioned by the instructor numerous times that if you had an internal audit finding for a certain item in your company that the auditor could not give you a non-conformance for the same item when they did your external audit. Is this true? Also if this stands true, is this for only open audit findings that have not been closed, or even closed items that they find are still wrong? Thanks for the help.
Yes, in some instances. We did escape some findings because we had identified them. Others, that were still in-progress, we were written up. It depends on the nonconformance and the auditor's subjective opinion.
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
lanley liao How to understand this words that the planning of internal audit shall take into consideration the results of previous audits? Oil and Gas Industry Standards and Regulations 10
M ISO13485:2016, MDSAP and Internal Audits ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 8
S Would this be a second site for the purposes of internal and third party audits? General Auditing Discussions 4
J ISMS - Internal Audits Internal Auditing 3
L Documented Information in Internal Audits Process (9.2) ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 4
D CB and customer audits considered as internal audits? General Auditing Discussions 9
R IATF 16949 - Outsourcing of internal audits Internal Auditing 10
M Major vs. Minor for Internal Audits? Internal Auditing 10
C Internal Audits in a tiny Dx Company Internal Auditing 33
N Sampling Plan for Internal Audits - ISO 2859 or 3951 - Or Neither? Internal Auditing 6
O ISO13485 implementation - Are internal audits expected before stage 1 audit? Design and Development of Products and Processes 3
O Informational Scaling back internal audits due to corona virus while avoiding a NC Internal Auditing 7
G Internal Audits and Employee engagement Internal Auditing 16
S Internal audit discrepancy - We missed a few audits that were scheduled Internal Auditing 12
F ISO 17025 8.8 Internal Audits in a segmented company ISO 17025 related Discussions 5
qualprod Internal Audits - Categories of non conformances Internal Auditing 12
G Non Conformance During ISO 9001 Audit - Not All Internal Audits Completed General Auditing Discussions 19
K A way to monitor our Internal Audits as a KPI AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 7
blackholequasar Internal Auditing Inspiration - Getting volunteers to perform internal audits. Internal Auditing 22
A External Auditor issue with Internal Audits Internal Auditing 7
W Internal Auditing carried out by a 3rd party - Review of previous audits AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 3
E Informational Internal Audits - Wear multiple hats what can and can't I audit (so I'm not auditing my own work) Internal Auditing 149
Gman2 Quality Record Retention (Internal Audits, CA's) ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 9
T Informational What is the purpose of Internal Audits? Internal Auditing 27
F API Spec Q1 9th Edition Surveillance Audit - Questions about internal audits. Oil and Gas Industry Standards and Regulations 22
Pmarszal ISO 19011:2018 - Risk Based Approach for planning, conducting and reporting of internal audits Internal Auditing 8
R ISO 13485:2016 Registration - NC on full cycle of internal audits ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 7
J Internal Audit clarification - How to perform the audits IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 6
S Corrective Action from Internal Audits not performed ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 24
W FAA Advisory Circular (AC) Requirements (FAA AC 00-56) - Internal Audits AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 4
B Going into IATF 16949 transition without Internal Audits IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
S Internal Audits performed by another local business ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 26
K No Internal Audits For Upcoming IATF Trans Audit IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 5
J Supporting Processes - Internal Audits - Need help settling a debate IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
K AS9100 Rev. D Transition - Internal Audits & Gap Analysis Requirements AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 14
J Internal Audits - Closing Audit Deficiency Reports (ISO 13485) Internal Auditing 4
S Is Audit Plan / Agenda required for Internal Audits? Internal Auditing 2
J ISO 9001:2008 - Can I still conduct Internal Audits in my company? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 7
F What is your favorite software for ISO 9001:2015 Internal Audits? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 3
C ISO 9001:2008 Surveillance Audit - No Internal Audits Internal Auditing 9
J Dinged on Internal Audits for supervising an auditor I was training Internal Auditing 10
Marc ISO 9001:2015 vs. 2008 - Internal Audits - What changes are you making? Internal Auditing 44
M Are auditing checklists required for Internal Audits? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 13
dubrizo Internal Audit Value - What is the point of conducting internal audits to a checklist Internal Auditing 40
D Using consultants for Internal Audits Internal Auditing 24
O New Job 1 Month from Recertification Audit - Missing Documents, no Internal Audits ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 25
R How do I conduct my API Q1, ISO compliant internal audits? Internal Auditing 1
F Is it good to outsource the Internal Audits? Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 16
S Advice for ISO17025 First Round of Internal Audits ISO 17025 related Discussions 10
S Engineering Audits - Internal Audits IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 7

Similar threads

Top Bottom