Informational Internal Audits - Wear multiple hats what can and can't I audit (so I'm not auditing my own work)

[AndyN]

My concern is we have processes documented, but if you talked to >75% of the people in the department they'd have no idea where the processes are defined or what they are. Although, if you talk to the manager they are familiar with the processes and where they are documented

And the managers should be engaged in the audit to have them witness this travesty! Once the see if for what it's worth, the action is going to be swift in understanding why and thus remediated. Anything else, and you will clearly have identified a cultural issue (if people can't speak about their process in front of management there's a problem) which will be in need of urgent action.

Doing audits without the full engagement of top management will simply ensure the QMS is NEVER seen as a means to improve business performance, that everything is done simply to keep a certificate (of dubious value) on the wall and that employees see managements' "commitment" as more rhetoric.

 

[Coury Ferguson]

I don't disagree with you. What I have a problem with (and I believe there was a previous post about it) the Manager answering the questions like Sales people. The do the talking when you are trying to get information from the employee. For example:

The question is asked to the employee:

1. Are you aware of the Quality Objectives of the Organization and how you play a part in accomplishing them? (Ref: ISO9001:2015, paragraph 7.3)

2. How are you (employee) made aware of this, and if they were met or not?

The manager comes back and states "yes we flow down that to the employees in monthly meetings." Is that the proper response you want to gain insight into? No. The information you are seeking comes from the employee (interviewee). That is what I meant when I expect the management as an observer not to answer.

That is why I get those answers (from the management) during the Leadership process review.

Maybe I am doing it incorrectly or going about it the wrong way to get the information needed.

 

[Marc]

My concern is we have processes documented, but if you talked to >75% of the people in the department they'd have no idea where the processes are defined or what they are.

See below...

If you go down and say "show me what you do" you'll have more success.

Exactly - Each employee only needs to know what documents directly affect them as part of their job. Nothing more.
Wallet card for employees. And while people these days say "Its not say what you do and do what you say" - To the distractors I say poppy cock. Every individual employee should be able to tell an auditor what they do, when they do it, etc. And each individual employee should be doing what their job description says.

Too many people try to over complicate the whole thing.

 

[AndyN]

1. Are you aware of the Quality Objectives of the Organization and how you play a part in accomplishing them? (Ref: ISO9001:2015, paragraph 7.3)

2. How are you (employee) made aware of this, and if they were met or not?

I wouldn't be asking questions like that of an employee! I'd start with management and ask WHAT objectives are flowed down and then go ask the employees and as way to validate what management say happens. That way they have nothing to answer for, after it's explained to you.

 

[Marc]

The do the talking when you are trying to get information from the employee.

Rule number 1 is: The employee is expected to answer. Managers should keep their noses out of it when an employee is being audited. As an auditor, if a manager, for example, would butt in I never had a problem saying "I'm asking John, here. Please let him talk."

 

[Golfman25]

I don't disagree with you. What I have a problem with (and I believe there was a previous post about it) the Manager answering the questions like Sales people. The do the talking when you are trying to get information from the employee. For example:

The question is asked to the employee:

1. Are you aware of the Quality Objectives of the Organization and how you play a part in accomplishing them? (Ref: ISO9001:2015, paragraph 7.3)

2. How are you (employee) made aware of this, and if they were met or not?

The manager comes back and states "yes we flow down that to the employees in monthly meetings." Is that the proper response you want to gain insight into? No. The information you are seeking comes form the employee (interviewee). That is what I meant when I expect the management as an observer not to answer.

That is why I get those answers (from the management) during the Leadership process review.

Maybe I am doing it incorrectly or going about it the wrong way to get the information needed.

The problem is that's an "unfair" question to the average worker bee on the shop floor. They'll likely give you a strange look as they try to figure out what "Quality Objectives of the Organization" means. Then they will panic because they have no clue what you are talking about. I like Andy's way -- ask the managers what the numbers are and see if you can correlate it with the workers. You may have to ask the questions a few different ways to make sure they understand.

 

[Coury Ferguson]

I disagree with you on this.

Let me give a life experience here.

I performed an Internal audit last week. I looked at 10 identified process.

During the Leadership (one of the processes) interviews it was found that this information (Quality Objectives) was not flowed down to the floor level. It was admitted to by the Management Team. This also was validated by interviewing floor personnel. They knew where the Policy was, but had no idea what the Quality Objectives of the Organization were. This just supported my conclusion that paragraph 7.3 was not met. This was documented as a minor area of concern in the audit report.

Am I still going down the wrong path here?

 

[AndyN]

During the Leadership (one of the processes) interview

I'd offer that "Leadership" isn't a process, to begin with. I'd have to ask what you are using as audit criteria? The standard?

 

[Coury Ferguson]

I'd offer that "Leadership" isn't a process, to begin with. I'd have to ask what you are using as audit criteria? The standard?

Andy,

I didn't assign that process. Our Corporate Office did. But, as I said, ISO9001:2015 paragraph 7.3 (b) was not met.

As to your question, "Leadership" has been identified as the main process. The sub-processes of that are: Management Review, Strategic Planning, and Continuous improvement.

 

[AndyN]

As to your question, "Leadership" has been identified as the main process

Aha! Here's the root cause...