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Informational Internal Audits - Wear multiple hats what can and can't I audit (so I'm not auditing my own work)

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G

Golfman25

Trusted Information Resource
#42
#42
Sidney Vianna said:
I don't understand the apples and cathedrals comparison here; one is trying to find ways to improve his/her own performance for personal gain. The other is work done to assess if EXECUTED work WAS done in accordance with specified criteria. The two situations are totally different.

Let's explore your scenario:

1. Let's assume someone audit his/her own work and finds NOTHING negative to report (the most likely scenario). How can anyone tell if the audit was well conducted, impartial and objective? How can anyone tell it was a good audit?

2. Let's assume the auditor audits his/her own work and find a number of "nonconformities" (very unlikely). Now someone must ask: How can I trust this person, as an employee, if s/he found problems with their own work? If they goofed up then, chances are, they will goof up again....
Click to expand...
The point is certain people can objectively review their performance as well as their work. However, when someone does audit their own work a reviewer my want to look a little deeper. So if say purchasing was auditing their own work, as an external auditor I might want to spend a little extra time there and maybe review a few more samples just to be certain the internal audit was kosher.

And I don't know where you work, but where I do people goof up. If they find it and admit it before it becomes a major problem that is a bonus. We can do something about it. It's when they try to cover it up that it becomes a problem. So I obviously don't buy your two outcomes.
 
A

AndyN

Moved On
#43
#43
If an auditor provides a clear plan in their preparation for an audit, clear descriptions of the criteria being used and then records their findings compared to those criteria, it'll be pretty clear that an unbiased, objective audit was performed. When anyone uses the 3rd party process, where there's little time spent on either of those aspects of an audit and every audit is viewed a done like a 3rd party audit, it's easy to see how objectivity is lost. "Proper planning prevents..."

We appear to have the popular "whataboutism" creeping in to these discussions. The plain fact is people can, and do, (internally) audit work they've done and have done it objectively and impartially and effectively, too.
 
Coury Ferguson

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Staff member
Super Moderator
#44
#44
AndyN said:
We appear to have the popular "whataboutism" creeping in to these discussions. The plain fact is people can, and do, (internally) audit work they've done and have done it objectively and impartially and effectively, too.
Click to expand...
I agree here.
 
Sidney Vianna

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#47
#47
AndyN said:
We appear to have the popular "whataboutism" creeping in to these discussions. The plain fact is people can, and do, (internally) audit work they've done and have done it objectively and impartially and effectively, too.
Click to expand...
From my view point, we don't have whataboutism here. We have professional opinions, fully supported by NORMATIVE references in one side and opinions supported by opinions on the other side.

AndyN said:
The plain fact is people can, and do, (internally) audit work they've done and have done it objectively and impartially and effectively, too.
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If that was a fact, the standard would not need to mention the need to assign auditors in a way to ensure objectivity and impartiality.

AndyN said:
Contact Paul Simpson who is the new head of TC 176 (and a long time supporter here) with that wish.
Click to expand...
Actually he is the chair of the Sub Committee 2 under the TC 176.
 
Y

Yukon

#48
#48
The person auditing the process must be independent of that process. For example could a QC manager audit the QC process. Yes he could. Would his results be suspect. Yes they would.
 
Jim Wynne

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#49
#49
Sidney Vianna said:
How can you be independent of the work you performed?
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You can't be. But you seem to have avoided the point I made about the lack of difference between "practicable" and "practical" in this context that you raised earlier.

Sidney Vianna said:
How can anyone know if an internal auditor will be impartial and objective when auditing his/her own work?
Click to expand...
How can anyone know that an internal auditor who is independent of the process being audited will be impartial and objective?
 
E

Eredhel

Quality Manager
#50
#50
If the standard calls out ISO 9000, and if ISO 9000 says "...carried out by personnel not being responsible for the object audited" aren't we wandering a bit from the requirement? At least as it's written, aside from what might be intended.
 
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