Internal laboratories to be accredited to ISO 17025?

Hershal

Metrologist-Auditor
Staff member
Super Moderator
#21
If you seek accreditation, let me restress that you should NOT settle on one AB until you talk to - and get quotes from - all SIX ABs.....(see my previous post).....

Hope this helps.

Hershal
 
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K

Ken K

#22
Contained in a GM test specification:

3 Requirements
3.1 General Requirements. Testing is to be performed
by a laboratory accredited or audited, by
a third party organization recognized by GM, to
ISO 17025/IEC Guide 25 or GM GP-10. Include a
Scope of Accreditation or a Scope of Activity with the
test data. Registration to QS9000 or TS16949 is not a
substitute for lab accreditation.

GM's Interior Division, amongst others, will not accept test data from a non ISO17025 accredited internal lab. Been there...done that...have been accredited for the last four years...only for GM:mad:
 

Hershal

Metrologist-Auditor
Staff member
Super Moderator
#23
UPDATE: I understand that there are now SEVEN ABs in North America that are recognized.....see my previous posts and then add EMA (the Mexican accrediting body) to the list.

Hershal
 
K

Ken K

#24
An interesting developement from GM. Seems they are backing off the requirement to be accredited:

3 Requirements
3.1 General Requirements.
3.1.1 Test Data. Lab testing is to be performed by
a laboratory that conforms* to ISO/IEC 17025 and
is acceptable to the customer (General Motors).
Test reports must conform to Section 5.10.2 & 3 of
ISO/IEC 17025.
*Meets requirements but may not be formally recognized
by a third party.


This is from a newly released carpet specification:applause: Could it be a sign of a gentler GM concerning supplier requirements:truce:
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#25
Ken K said:
An interesting developement from GM. Seems they are backing off the requirement to be accredited:

3 Requirements
3.1 General Requirements.
3.1.1 Test Data. Lab testing is to be performed by
a laboratory that conforms* to ISO/IEC 17025 and
is acceptable to the customer (General Motors).
Test reports must conform to Section 5.10.2 & 3 of
ISO/IEC 17025.
*Meets requirements but may not be formally recognized
by a third party.


This is from a newly released carpet specification:applause: Could it be a sign of a gentler GM concerning supplier requirements:truce:
I don't know about gentler; it's probably a matter of pragmatism (also a rare quality for GM) :lol: . There are probably two reasons. Because nearly all of the labs in the US who might do this sort of testing (e.g., durability, colorfastness, flammability) are accredited, there are probably lots of suppliers' internal labs that haven't been accredited, and GM is faced with either accepting a long-standing status quo or being billed for all of the outside testing that will need to be done. The other reason--and perhaps the primary one--is that there are a lot of offshore suppliers who don't have access to 17025-accredited labs locally.
 
D

D.Scott

#26
Great reasoning Jim. I am sure you are spot on.

I think a great addition here would be a link to a document or perhaps a GM interpretation on this issue.

Dave
 
K

Ken K

#27
So now the question becomes how many internal labs who were forced to become accredited four years ago to keep the test cost in-house will opt out?

We are seriously considering it. I just received the schedule for our audit, which is due in February, and the cost is $6600.00 not including travel and motel expenses. And then there is the cost of PT/ILC to consider. Why be accredited when we only need to be compliant.:(

On the other hand, who will determine compliance? Do you think GM will audit internal labs? I don't think thats likely.


So, today I download a DCX updated carpet specification. They added this little tidbit:

Carpet samples and test specimen/test data folder(s) presented for approval to the Organic Materials Department, Engineering Office, Chrysler Corporation, must comply with the requirements of ***ISO- 17025*** (General requirements for the competence of testing and calibration laboratories.)

I must admit, these guys know how to keep one on their toes:bonk:
 
D

D.Scott

#28
Ken K said:
So now the question becomes how many internal labs who were forced to become accredited four years ago to keep the test cost in-house will opt out?

We are seriously considering it. I just received the schedule for our audit, which is due in February, and the cost is $6600.00 not including travel and motel expenses. And then there is the cost of PT/ILC to consider. Why be accredited when we only need to be compliant.:(

On the other hand, who will determine compliance? Do you think GM will audit internal labs? I don't think thats likely.


So, today I download a DCX updated carpet specification. They added this little tidbit:

Carpet samples and test specimen/test data folder(s) presented for approval to the Organic Materials Department, Engineering Office, Chrysler Corporation, must comply with the requirements of ***ISO- 17025*** (General requirements for the competence of testing and calibration laboratories.)

I must admit, these guys know how to keep one on their toes:bonk:
Ken, This appears to also lift the requirement of registration and accepts compliance. Also, it appears this only applies to initial approvals and not the ongoing process performance testing. Is that the way you read it?

IMO, a company is within their right to make their own statement of compliance so long as they specify their scope and are in a position to back up the claim if a problem arises. I don't see an advantage in challenging their claim by auditing unless I experience a problem.

We dropped our A2LA certification because it became too expensive to maintain but we didn't throw out the baby with the bathwater. We spent a lot getting our lab into shape and other than certification, we have maintained our system. We would be crazy to go backwards.

Dave
 

Hershal

Metrologist-Auditor
Staff member
Super Moderator
#29
It is unlikely that GM, Ford, or Daimler/Chrysler will audit internal labs.....they will have accrediting bodies do that.....so long as they specify ABs that are signatory to ILAC or a region (e.g. APLAC) they will have a more consistent approach and an accreditation they can accept.

It will get messy if they specify an AB that is a NACLA signatory however, sine that field is extremely limited.....L-A-B, ACLASS, NVLAP, and IAS (testing only).

If any internal labs are in fact considering accreditation, then I certainly recommend talking to all the accrediting bodies in North America that are ILAC/APLAC signatories.....IAS, A2LA, EMA (Mexico), NVLAP, SCC/CLAS (Canada).....that assures global acceptance.

Suppliers in other countries often do have access to laboratories that provide the testing described below, and that are accredited, and in their own country. For example, HKAS and CNAL are both active accrediting bodies and have many accredited labs in Hong Kong and China respectively.

An internal lab can of course self-declare.....and the customer such as GM has the subsequent right to either audit or refuse to accept any reports without an accreditation body logo, or of course to accept an unsubstantiated declaration.

Hershal
 
K

Ken K

#30
Dave,

I really don't know what we are going to do yet. I don't want to drop accreditation only to have GM change it's mind two years down the road. And this is the first time DCX even mentioned 17025.

We will definately keep the compliance aspect if we decide to drop accreditation. Too much work put into the system during the last four years to just blow it off.
 
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