Internal vs. external audit training course differences?

howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#11
Great response Sidney! It's clear you've seen your share of audit programs "going through the motions" without adding value. Make a list opposite of what you've listed here and it would be a start for a pretty good guidance document...
 
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Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#12
Yes, Sidney! Next to zero internal auditing, using a poorly implemented internal auditing system often creates additional waste chasing inconsequential matters simply because the audit team is not part of what Deming called a "System of Profound Knowledge" which posits the employee is familiar with the "Big Picture" and how he and the processes under his direction fit into that big picture.
 
C

CQA2006

#14
I agree that the RABQSA training courses are better suited to more formal external audits. I used the knowledge I gained in the lead auditor class to tailor an internal class for auditor candidates. I cover a review of the standards with service examples (which is another complaint I have of the external classes offered, they are manufacturing based) and exercises designed to mimic our actual audit process. I have received very positive feedback that the new auditors feel prepared to conduct an audit "our way".
 
B

Bill Pflanz

#15
Right on Randy!

Yes, we (trainers) should stress more the internal audit process including Top Management as the "beneficiaries." ;)

Other thoughts Covers?

Stijloor.

With all the demands on executives, internal auditing is probably last on what makes their to-do list. If you cannot get an audience with your own executive to review internal auditing, it would be unlikely they would attend outside training. And even if you could get their interest, I doubt if top management would go to this type of training unless it was dedicated solely to and attended by other executives.

Bill Pflanz
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#16
With all the demands on executives, internal auditing is probably last on what makes their to-do list. If you cannot get an audience with your own executive to review internal auditing, it would be unlikely they would attend outside training. And even if you could get their interest, I doubt if top management would go to this type of training unless it was dedicated solely to and attended by other executives.

Bill Pflanz
FWIW:
I've never had a problem with getting managers (even top ones) interested in the topic of internal auditing, but rarely from the viewpoint of actually BECOMING TRAINED as an auditor.

I framed the situation this way:

  1. Top managers need to know what's going on in the organization
  2. The most efficient way to assimilate this information is if it comes in systematic bundles
  3. As managers, it is imperative to "work through others"
  4. Good managers use others to gather the information
  5. To assure the information is accurate and valid for use, it is necessary for ALL gatherers to use the same tools to ensure completeness and reduce variation in accuracy and validity
  6. Once the data is available, it makes sense to review the data in the most efficient way possible and make decisions whether to initiate an action [for correction or improvement] or to remain at status quo.
  7. Once a decision is made after the review, it makes sense to communicate that decision to all involved to ensure the most effective and rapid implementation possible.
THEREFORE:
Would you agree it makes sense to adopt a tried and true system for information gathering, review, and decision making rather than try to reinvent the wheel?

Remember, this system of internal audit and review is primarily aimed at auditing and reviewing the organization's processes to see how they jibe with the organization's PLANS for the processes. Internal audit is NOT LIMITED to confirming compliance with any international Standard, but may range enterprise-wide.
 
#17
I whole heartedly agree, Wes.

Some of my most memorable auditor training sessions were with top management - it was fun to see them working through the assignments - of some pretty effective corporations. Once they get a good grasp of the purpose of internal auditing, they don't limit it to simple compliance with the ISO stuff......
 
B

Bill Pflanz

#18
I think Wes and I are on the same page. It is not necessary to train management as auditors but it is necessary to have their buy-in of the value of auditing. The outline that Wes prepared could be used internally by the quality manager in a discussion about the importance of auditing in lieu of formal training.

Bill Pflanz
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#19
I think Wes and I are on the same page. It is not necessary to train management as auditors but it is necessary to have their buy-in of the value of auditing. The outline that Wes prepared could be used internally by the quality manager in a discussion about the importance of auditing in lieu of formal training.

Bill Pflanz
Right! The task of the manager is to understand the internal audit system that will deliver information to him. It is necessary for the manager to ensure the auditors he selects are trained and competent in the internal audit system. It is also necessary for the manager to ensure he, himself, is systematic in the way he reviews and evaluates the information thus delivered and that he is consistent in communicating the conclusions to the necessary parties.

The term communicating means more than merely sending out a memo - it means actually ensuring the message transmitted is acknowledged, understood, and the parties motivated to implement any changes spelled out.
 
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