International Differences in Third Party Auditing and Auditors

H

HSSE Auditor

#41
:topic:As for gender difference... yes, that is real, though I don't think it's an issue here. I recall once a student of English asked me about something a co-worker on the factory line had said to him, which he didn't understand. You can ask me anything, I'd said. He did. Oops! I went immediately red. Hmm, 'I think that would be best explained to you by Roy (co-teacher)'.

OK, I could have translated what the man had probably referred to (a common phrase to indicate a portion of male anatomy - you can guess which), but I didn't, because I was pretty certain it was something he'd prefer not to hear from me, and better from someone of the same gender.
The gender difference in the case of this thread, if there is one, might relate to for example, a female that is strong willed, outspoken, intelligent and an individualist might not be traits that are valued by males from certain other countries. These traits might be considered threats to the male "Masculinity" in certain countries.
 
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Randy

Super Moderator
#42
The gender difference in the case of this thread, if there is one, might relate to for example, a female that is strong willed, outspoken, intelligent and an individualist might not be traits that are valued by males from certain other countries.

:topic:Sound's like my Judi...now I'm getting excited because I like it;)
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#43
:topic:Sound's like my Judi...now I'm getting excited because I like it;)
I see . . . and you wear a moustache because the skin on your upper lip was chafing from the ring in your nose rubbing against it. I think I may have to grow a moustache for the same reason:lmao:

How do you think this style (thumbnail) would look on me? I know some of you have been drawing some on my avatar for years - do the marks come off a lcd screen easily?;)
 

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P

potdar

#44
Pretend? I don't.

Do I think some certifiers are poor? Yes, I do. (There's a couple in this country I'll have nothing to do with). But they are 2 out of 26. That's low numbers.
Are there some poor auditors around? Yes. Yes, these things happen. Nothing and no one is perfect, and I don't expect this. But the majority I come across and work with are OK through to very good. I've seen... oh, golly, at least 70 - 80 different auditors at work. Of those, I was distinctly unimpressed through to very unhappy with perhaps 5 or 6 all up, over a 20-year period. Also low numbers.
Firstly, thanks for your patience with my post and for not taking it personally. I think, this exactly highlights the more personal than cultural difference we have on the topic. You consider these as low numbers, I dont. Analysing numerically in the ISO spirit, it is 8% of the CBs and again 8% of the auditors:mg:

If I experience a poor auditor/audit, I complain to the certifier in the first instance. On the (relatively few overall) occasions I've done it, I've usually been impressed with their response and action, from replacing the auditor to reviewing the findings and in one case, retiring an auditor permanently.
Again, this one auditor who was retired. Heavens know how many organisations he had incompetently audited and @^%#$^&$%#ed (sorry gender specific:D) before someone like you stood up and complained. Typically, in my 3.5 year career as a certifying auditor, I had conducted around 300 certification audits + so many surveillances. If I got kicked out after all these years, what about those 300 organisations?

ON a couple of other occasions, I've advised the client to switch certifiers. In both cases, the client was very much happier with the new certifier and auditor/s.
So, for whatever reasons, here was something wrong in the relationship between the registrant and the registrar.

What I didn't say in that thread (wasn't relevant to the topic!) was that when I first started with them, the auditor had raised some very severe actions in his recertification audit report against the system, its documentation, its workability. It required a lot of change. (If you want to blame anyone, in fact, put the blame where it belongs. With the %^&*^%$ consultant who'd sold them the pile of 'off the shelf' crap documentation close to the worst I've seen. He'd taken that old outdated 1994 model, pasted in all the words from the new version... and trotted it out. Words (almost) fail me.)
In my understanding, if a lot needs to be changed in a system it doesn't get certified except for commercial reasons.

Secondly, $^^%&^$ consultants seliing off the shelf crap do exist and do a thriving business - basically because the crap gets certified.

One white crow does not make all crows white!
This is where I differ. In my language - One rotten apple ...

I am not disagreeing that things go wrong, that some certifiers aren't what they should be, and some auditors ditto. Where I do disagree, as have others in this thread, and what I will continue to disagree absolutely with you, is that this is widespread or normal or the general rule.
I too dont claim that this is a widespread or general rule. What I have been trying to highlight by giving links to cases reported by people (including you) across the world is that this is not confined to any specific culture in the world. And whatever is being reported is not good enough a standard of auditing.

Such poor standards of auditing are overriding any and all cultural differences that might exist.
 
P

potdar

#45
Potdar may not be allowed to audit in his neighboring country to the West.
:topic:Well, not an audit, but I have done a small consulting assignment in Pakistan. Culturally too, both the countries share the same roots and same culture so here thats absolutely a non issue. Only there was some historical problem, but things are a changing.
 
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Randy

Super Moderator
#46
Potdar may not be allowed to audit in his neighboring country to the West. QUOTE]

:topic:Well, not an audit, but I have done a small consulting assignment in Pakistan. Culturally too, both the countries share the same roots and same culture so here thats absolutely a non issue. Only there was some historical problem, but things are a changing.

:topic:I understand and appreciate that.
 
J

JaneB

#47
Firstly, thanks for your patience with my post and for not taking it personally. I think, this exactly highlights the more personal than cultural difference we have on the topic.
Likewise! :) Me too.


You consider these as low numbers, I dont. Analysing numerically in the ISO spirit, it is 8% of the CBs and again 8% of the auditors:mg:
Yes, very reasonable point. How about 'relatively low' numbers? But even so, still unacceptable, I agree.

Again, this one auditor who was retired. Heavens know how many organisations he had incompetently audited and @^%#$^&$%#ed (sorry gender specific:D) before someone like you stood up and complained.
I totally agree with you. Actually, he was a good case in point for cultural including gender difference. Male - yes. Opinion of women? Seemed relatively low - there to make the coffee and do the photocopying. Acting for the client? not happy. And most of his background (as I recall) was in a state-run environment in Asia. He was doing a 'pre-audit check' and basically just wanted to lay down the law, lecture and go.

The more I debated, disagreed, and queried a/which particular clause was being referenced, why and b/his interpretation thereof, the shorter and shorter temperred he got. He ended up - quite literally - standing and yelling, while shaking his hand, with upright angry finger in my face, and at one point, the client's. I actually got to the point of finding it (almost) amusing, he was so bad, and I'd never, never seen anything like it. Don't expect to ever again, either.

But - when I did complain (with permission from client) the certifier could not have dealt with it better, almost a textbook case of 'how to turn around a complainant'. Interestingly, they said, look some clients love him and some hate him. But as you say - what about the ones who hated him (like me)? I also discovered from the certifier that he had a back injury which was troubling him, so that probably also was a contributing cause. But no excuse. And I suspect that in one sense it wouldn't have mattered whether he was of Indonesian, British, Chinese, American or whatever background, he'd still have been a dictatorial little blighter in any case.

My client didn't know enough to know that this kind of behaviour was completely, completely unacceptable. If they'd not had a consultant there who did, they would probably have shut up, and tried to make their system into one that he wanted to say (shades of 1994).

Why still auditing? - well here's the rub. They couldn't act without data - ie, formal complaints. (At the time, we had quite stringent labour laws that made it very difficult for employers to get rid of employees, and weighted the scales heavily in favour of employees). And no, I don't think that's OK either.

Typically, in my 3.5 year career as a certifying auditor, I had conducted around 300 certification audits + so many surveillances. If I got kicked out after all these years, what about those 300 organisations?
True, true, true. No argument from this hemisphere!

$^^%&^$ consultants seliing off the shelf crap do exist and do a thriving business - basically because the crap gets certified.
Indeed, yes. (Multiple expletives here deleted, along with my opinion of such 'consultants' who are not worthy of the name) :mad:

This is where I differ. In my language - One rotten apple ...
Oh, very good point.

I too dont claim that this is a widespread or general rule. What I have been trying to highlight by giving links to cases reported by people (including you) across the world is that this is not confined to any specific culture in the world. And whatever is being reported is not good enough a standard of auditing.

Such poor standards of auditing are overriding any and all cultural differences that might exist.
Oh good - I must have misunderstood you. Because now I'm in 100% total agreement with you. It's not good enough. And it should be better.
 
J

JaneB

#50
:topic:

The handlebar look? How about the Zapata?
Great shot, Randy, lurv it! The Zapata definitely does it for me too :biglaugh:

I don't like those silly little 'jee, when I was shaving I must have missed this tiny little bit on my chin' (goatee?) ones. But then, like so many things, these are a personal style/taste thing, no?
 
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