International Differences in Third Party Auditing and Auditors

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#51
:topic:



Great shot, Randy, lurv it! The Zapata definitely does it for me too :biglaugh:

I don't like those silly little 'jee, when I was shaving I must have missed this tiny little bit on my chin' (goatee?) ones. But then, like so many things, these are a personal style/taste thing, no?
It's amazing what a difference facial hair can make. For example, see the before-and-after pictures below of me with and without the beard:



 
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H

HSSE Auditor

#52
Quote:
Originally Posted by HSSE Auditor


a female that is strong willed, outspoken, intelligent and an individualist


Who, what, me? :notme:

Darn, sprung again.

Can't wait for that mustachio-ed look, Wes :lol: Just love a handlebar mo!
I might have added, very pretty too! :eek:
 
C

Craig H.

#53
Such poor standards of auditing are overriding any and all cultural differences that might exist.
What a GREAT discussion!

Potdar, this statement of yours got me to thinking (oh, no). The problem, in my mind, is that there are really no standards for auditing and auditors that could address the issue at hand. Surely I think almost all of us would agree that the finger shaking madman act is inappropriate, but is there a written standard that speaks against it? We have the standard we are auditing against (9001, 14000, 17025, etc.), but is there guidance concerning how to actually do the audit? It would seem to be "common sense", but then again the 8% mentioned by Jane suggests maybe not.

All of our opinions about the appropriateness of the actions of an auditor quickly become subjective. Is it possible, or even desirable, to come up with a written set of auditing standards that go beyond the "code of ethics"?

Or, do I need to take my thinking cap off?
 

Paul Simpson

Trusted Information Resource
#54
We have the standard we are auditing against (9001, 14000, 17025, etc.), but is there guidance concerning how to actually do the audit?
ISO 19011 is "Guidelines for quality and/or environmental management systems auditing" and covers planning and conduct of an audit and deals with some of the "soft" issues of culture and competence.

Or, do I need to take my thinking cap off?
No, never, Craig. That's what the Cove is all about - applied thinking! :lol:
 
C

Craig H.

#55
ISO 19011 is "Guidelines for quality and/or environmental management systems auditing" and covers planning and conduct of an audit and deals with some of the "soft" issues of culture and competence.
WARNING: Stupid Question.

Can we audit an ISO 9001 audit to ISO 19011?

I ask because I must claim ignorance concerning 19011 (mental note to self - order it). I know it is there, but have never had any direct experience with it.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#56
WARNING: Stupid Question.

Can we audit an ISO 9001 audit to ISO 19011?

I ask because I must claim ignorance concerning 19011 (mental note to self - order it). I know it is there, but have never had any direct experience with it.
19011 was developed primarily to provide guidance on the establishment/management of auditing programs, conducting audits and auditor development and competence.

Can you audit to it?....Not as it is because of 1 word "SHOULD". You can't audit a "should" because it is not prescriptive.

I have seen organizations accept and make 19011 a system document stating they would internally turn all the "should's" into "shall's making it auditable at that time. In my experience this hasn't been too successful and has resulted in my issuing NC's during the audit of the internal audit process. Some organizations selectively use 19011 as their guidance, which is fine, and apparently others like you don't. Macht's nicht's.....
 

Paul Simpson

Trusted Information Resource
#57
Like Randy said! He's just quicker off the blocks than me ..... aah, the number of half written posts I have left within the Elsmar system. :lol:
 
C

Craig H.

#58
Some organizations selectively use 19011 as their guidance, which is fine, and apparently others like you don't. Macht's nicht's.....
Randy,

I suspect that, although I have not vetted my auditing techniques to 19011, the people who taught me to audit and the third party auditors I have seen audit have been familiar with the document. I doubt that I am alone on this. Therefore, through osmosis, I have been using ISO 19011. I think. Maybe.

I do have some exposure to financial auditing, a long time ago in a place far, far away. I have been assuming that the basics are the same.

Time to order the standard.
 
J

JaneB

#60
What a GREAT discussion!
Yes, is it not? :yes:

It would seem to be "common sense", but then again the 8% mentioned by Jane suggests maybe not.
One of the things about 'common sense' is that it really isn't as 'common' as one thinks it should be. Took me a long time to realise this.
Almost all of ISO 9001 (for example) is what I think is just 'common business sense'. But I'm still flabbergasted at what some businesses do, get away with, and in fact are extremely profitable in spite of doing, as they are often running themselves on ... nothing much, perhaps boss' gut feel, instinct, having some really good people, even just sheer good luck.

All of our opinions about the appropriateness of the actions of an auditor quickly become subjective. Is it possible, or even desirable, to come up with a written set of auditing standards that go beyond the "code of ethics"?
I agree much of it it is subjective. Maybe it's the non-engineer in me, my experience of being a service provider in many role, and my experience with service-based companies, but this doesn't bother me. In fact I see it as inevitable when you are talking about a service performed by human beings . I had the pleasure of watching one (a competent auditor that is) at work earlier this week on a 2-day certification for my client. I always enjoy watching auditors from this firm (Lloyds Register) at work, and this was no exception.

Nothing, but nothing, can substitute for a skilled, experienced auditor. And, I don't think anything can substitute for having auditors mentored & assessed by competent auditors. Although that may sit uneasily with the engineers among us ;)

Instead of trying to stipulate a 'one size fits all', I'd prefer a model something akin to specifying that the certifier must define, & implement, & monitor against a set of service delivery standards for its auditors to follow (values, a code, whatever you want to call them). And make them demonstrate that they do this.

Or, do I need to take my thinking cap off?
No, Craig. Please, never.
 
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