Is a Documented Procedure required for HR (Human Resources)

S

samsung

#21
Dear Friend,
I agree with your point.....

"HR is an essential function within the organisation and should have policies and procedures in place"

Clause No.4.2 talking about Documentation Requirements, in its subclause No.4.2.1c) speaking "documented procedures and records required by this international standard". 4.2.1 starting with "the quality management system documentation shall include...a), b), c) etc. Here it is not mentioned any word like "excluding HR", "includes Marketing". This means an organization have quality management system, this should be there with all.
That doesn't lead anyone to conclude that a 'documented procedure' for HR is anyway required.

Clause 4.2.1 simply states "documents, including records, determined by the organization", i.e.; if an organization doesn't determine a need for having a document (or a documented procedure) for HR, it's at a liberty to do so.
 
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K

Ka Pilo

#22
Dear Friend,
I agree with your point.....

"HR is an essential function within the organisation and should have policies and procedures in place"

Clause No.4.2 talking about Documentation Requirements, in its subclause No.4.2.1c) speaking "documented procedures and records required by this international standard". 4.2.1 starting with "the quality management system documentation shall include...a), b), c) etc. Here it is not mentioned any word like "excluding HR", "includes Marketing". This means an organizatio have quality management system, this should be there with all.

Regards,Maheswari

Thanks for all members replied.

Regards, Maheswari
Samsung is right. I am not aware what you have done so it is impossible to say what else you need to do until one has seen the process although some basic procedures, for your satisfaction, includes Recruitment and Hiring Procedure, Training Procedure etc

My meaning ....

Process Plan - just you can call flow chart showing step by step start-to-end activities. It shows departmental objectives, full flow of a department from where coming input, output etc. and lastly what the records generating from the said flow in each step. To an Internal or External Auditor, when he / she see the "Process Plan" (flow chart), he / she can understand the entire activity.

Procedure - It is just like a specification or you can call just like a brief that showing how each step is working, purpose, responsibility and lastly what particular record generating specific procedure and its retention period.

I believe this is easiest to Auditee as well as Auditor to understand and examine (audit) that department's activitity. It also a easy method to prepare analysis report.

Regards
Maheswari
It would be good if you refer to ISO 9000:2005 Quality management systems -- Fundamentals and vocabulary
 
P

PE-2011

#23
Dear Samsung,

You pointed out sub-clause of 4.2.1 (d) that is documents, including records . . . .. .

Where as you may please refer clause No.4.2 documentation requirements. 4.2.1 showing general requirements, starting "the quality management system documentation shall include a, b, c & d

a, b, c & d to be considered.

Ofcourse you are correct "That doesn't lead anyone to conclude that a 'documented procedure' for HR is anyway required"

But I think "this does not lead anyone to conclude that a documented procedure for HR is anyway not required".
 
S

samsung

#24
Dear Samsung,

You pointed out sub-clause of 4.2.1 (d) that is documents, including records . . . .. .

Where as you may please refer clause No.4.2 documentation requirements. 4.2.1 showing general requirements, starting "the quality management system documentation shall include a, b, c & d

a, b, c & d to be considered.

Ofcourse you are correct "That doesn't lead anyone to conclude that a 'documented procedure' for HR is anyway required"

But I think "this does not lead anyone to conclude that a documented procedure for HR is anyway not required".
I personally feel that a documented procedure is better than a non-documented one but insofar mandatory procedures are concerned, they are only 6 in numbers.

Let's analyze the sub-clause 4.2.1 (a, b, c & d):

a) documented statements of a quality policy and quality objectives,
b) a quality manual,
c) documented procedures and records required by this International Standard, and
d) documents, including records, determined by the organization to be necessary to ensure the effective planning, operation and control of its processes.
a) states policy & Objectives only (no procedure whatsoever)
b) Quality manual (self explanatory)
c) 6 procedures and 21 mandatory records (required by ISO 9001, no relaxation except the records covered under 'exclusion')
d) I have already explained in my preceding post.

So, where do you find a mandatory requirement for the 7th documented procedure. Ofcourse, an organization may decide documenting as many procedures as it's business demands. The standard is quite flexible as clarified in the following statement:
It is not the intent of this International Standard to imply uniformity in the structure of quality management systems or uniformity of documentation.
 
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P

PE-2011

#25
Yes Samsung, my concern is also same as you mentioned "a documented procedure is better than a non-documented one".

Thanks Samsung.
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#26
Old habits die hard.

Here we are a decade later from when ISO 9001 freed us from over documentation with the introduction of the 2000 version, and many are still locked in the old militaristic 1994 version (based on a standard developed by the British to improve their quality during WWII).

We have been freed from that oppression. Don't look back! Enjoy the freedom!

This should be nearly as liberating as Lincoln freeing the slaves at the end of the Civil War!
 
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T

The Specialist

#27
Old habits die hard.

Here we are a decade later from when ISO 9001 freed us from over documentation with the introduction of the 2000 version, and many are still locked in the old militaristic 1994 version (based on a standard developed by the British to improve their quality during WWII).

We have been freed from that oppression. Don't look back! Enjoy the freedom!

This should be nearly as liberating as Lincoln freeing he slave at the end of the Civil War!

Big Jim,

I agree that 'liberation' from over-burdening procedure and documentation is a good thing, however; where proceduralisation [sic] standardises, informs and improves one's operations - it has to be a good thing, surely?
 
P

PE-2011

#28
I agree with you Big Jim. Ofcourse we should enjoy the freedom.

But I more agree with The Specialist. Even though we are decade later ISO standard not changed some requirements still. My personal opinion is if ISO standard allow more freedom, that may be not helpful to an organization's continual improvement. In this discussion I referred ISO 9001 : 2008 version, not 2000 version.

Everybody doing their work! Organizations is growing!! yes everything is there!!!! then why should ISO?
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#29
I agree with you Big Jim. Ofcourse we should enjoy the freedom.

But I more agree with The Specialist. Even though we are decade later ISO standard not changed some requirements still. My personal opinion is if ISO standard allow more freedom, that may be not helpful to an organization's continual improvement. In this discussion I referred ISO 9001 : 2008 version, not 2000 version.

Everybody doing their work! Organizations is growing!! yes everything is there!!!! then why should ISO?
I think we all agree that motherhood, freedom and democracy are good and desirable things. Nonetheless, ISO 9001:2008 doesn't require motherhood, freedom and democracy. The question in this thread is not what's good and desirable in a general sense or what warms the cockles of our hearts, but what the standard requires.
 
#30
Big Jim,

I agree that 'liberation' from over-burdening procedure and documentation is a good thing, however; where proceduralisation [sic] standardises, informs and improves one's operations - it has to be a good thing, surely?
What's 'good' about it? Goodness has to be qualified. Just saying it's so isn't a justification...

In my house, we have 3 or 4 people who all cook. We all, at one time or another, make scrambled eggs. Are you suggesting that such a task, if in a business (restaurant) should be documented?

To address another comment made, not everything needs improving. Some thing just need to be done and done well. "If it ain't broke, don't mess with it", type of thing.

I'm with Jim Wynne on this - my take is there's waaaay too much 'oh this is good for you' and not enough 'show me the money' with such ideals.
 
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