Is a Sales Growth Objective a 'Quality' Objective ?

[Sidney Vianna]

Excellent comments, Jim.

Most people realize that any successful organization has to balance the interests and expectations of multiple stakeholders. The Quality Management System is a sub-set of the Business Management Model. The QMS’s primary (not the only one) stakeholder are obviously the organization’s customers, who are interested in product quality and customer satisfaction. They, the customers, are the primary interested parties in the supplier’s QMS performance, and that is why most ISO 9001 certifications around the world happen, due to customer pressure.

One of the mistakes done my many quality professionals involved with ISO 9001 is to “sell” it for something it is not. ISO 9001 is NOT a business management model. There are MANY aspects of an organization that ISO 9001 doesn’t even come close to addressing.

While quality is much more than product conformity and conformance to requirements, we have to realize and accept that ISO 9001 FOCUSES on quality, not business excellence, not profitability, not product ingenuity, etc.

Most companies fail to truly benefit from ISO 9001 implementation because their approach is still one of management OF quality, instead of managing FOR Quality (a profound difference), i.e., a holistic approach.

Undoubtedly the sales process is part of the QMS, and if you want to develop quality objectives for the sales process, what about the following examples?

¨Improve accuracy of the order entry process
¨Reduce time to review bids and orders
¨Cross train sales and applications engineers
¨Institute EDI with top 10 customers
¨Etc…

In other words, what do I need to focus on the sales process to improve that aspect of my QMS, as it impacts customer satisfaction. To recap, there is nothing wrong to have an objective to increase sales, but imo, it does NOT fall under the definition of quality objectives.

 

[Kerrym]

If you're a manufacturer and you only have objectives for sales and rates of production, then you're missing the point of having a quality system, but what if your business is sales? Real estate agencies, brokers, or auctioneers might want to establish sales objectives to try and improve the quality of service to their clients:

- improve sell prices as percentage of assessed value
- reduce time on market
- improve number of sales/number of prospects

Would a simple objective to "increase sales" qualify as a quality objective for these kinds of businesses? Increased sales probably would improve customer satisfaction.

 

[Randy]

A good part of this conversation....which is pretty good....can be understood by applying some of the essential principles of supply and demand economics with Quality being an additional variable along with quantity and price.

I'm no math or economics genious but I can see it with my rudimentary understanding.

 

[Patricia Ravanello]

One of the mistakes done my many quality professionals involved with ISO 9001 is to “sell” it for something it is not. ISO 9001 is NOT a business management model. There are MANY aspects of an organization that ISO 9001 doesn’t even come close to addressing.

I suppose if we all agreed with each other, this would be a boring forum, so I have to voice my disagreement with the preceeding statement.

ISO 9001 is very much a Business Management Model. You're right in saying that it doesn't come close to addressing many aspects of an organization's functions - it doesn't deal with marketing, advertising, market research, research and development or financial functions, just to name a few.

However, the standard requires that you identify your KEY PROCESSES - customer-, support-, and management-oriented (not your Product Realization processes alone) and determine the sequence and interaction of all of them. The fact that ISO doesn't specify any requirements for those functions (and hence, no specific requirements to audit), doesn't mean you can ignore them...and I can't imagine why you would. Would you set up a separate methodology to manage these "unmentioned" functions?

ISO 9000 is most definitely a Business Management Model, and for the overwhelming number of companies that have implemented it, it's the only model to which they subscribe. A prudent company would monitor and measure the performance of ALL processes, implement corrective & preventive action and continual improvement per the same methodology mandated through the ISO standard.

Additionally, when you are faced with adding on the requirements of other standards and requirements (customer-specifics, Sarbanes Oxley, ISO 14001, etc.), they should all be built into the same Business Operating System, thereby creating a totally integrated system, with a minimal number of documents.

When I get a chance, I'll add references for some of the many web-sites which support this view.

Thanks for the opportunity to respond,
Patricia

 

[Craig H.]

However, the standard requires that you identify your KEY PROCESSES - customer-, support-, and management-oriented (not your Product Realization processes alone) and determine the sequence and interaction of all of them. The fact that ISO doesn't specify any requirements for those functions (and hence, no specific requirements to audit), doesn't mean you can ignore them...and I can't imagine why you would. Would you set up a separate methodology to manage these "unmentioned" functions?

Well, Patricia, I think we may have found the heart of our disagreement. 4.1 a asks for identification of the processes needed for the QMS. While c goes on to require monitoring and control, there is no mention of objectives, per se, and I argue that objectives do not equal monitoring and control as the terms are used elsewhere. While I agree that the quality toolkit does have some tricks that can be applied to those areas outside the QMS, that does not make those areas de facto members of the QMS subset.

I suspect that this is an area where few minds will be changed, but an interesting thread nonetheless!

 

[ralphsulser]

Looking thru the posts, I only see one that relates to improvement and that is "M.Greenway RE: increase profits". Increase in sales does not mean a hill of beans without a profit margin or at least absorbtion of the fixed and variable burden. Previously between QM jobs I was a Sales manager for a Fortune 500 company. We had a hard time improving our margins of profit due to increased competition from offshore companies. These companies sold product for less it cost us to make it. I could have easily increased sales to big key accounts, but we would have a negative margin. So I think an objective could be to increase profits by improving quality, productivity, and service thus causing customer pull thru because of customer excitement for your product.

 

[Craig H.]

Looking thru the posts, I only see one that relates to improvement and that is "M.Greenway RE: increase profits". Increase in sales does not mean a hill of beans without a profit margin or at least absorbtion of the fixed and variable burden. Previously between QM jobs I was a Sales manager for a Fortune 500 company. We had a hard time improving our margins of profit due to increased competition from offshore companies. These companies sold product for less it cost us to make it. I could have easily increased sales to big key accounts, but we would have a negative margin. So I think an objective could be to increase profits by improving quality, productivity, and service thus causing customer pull thru because of customer excitement for your product.

Yes. The main #1 goal of a for profit enterprise is just that - make a profit. That begs the question: How? The answers to that question should translate into objectives, qualitywise and otherwise.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

I suppose if we all agreed with each other, this would be a boring forum, so I have to voice my disagreement with the preceeding statement. ....ISO 9001 is very much a Business Management Model. ... ISO 9000 is most definitely a Business Management Model, and for the overwhelming number of companies that have implemented it, it's the only model to which they subscribe. .... I get a chance, I'll add references for some of the many web-sites which support this view.
Thanks for the opportunity to respond,
Patricia

This is what makes the Cove the greatest quality related forum in the UNIVERSE...Don't ever feel concerned about disagreeing and defending your points of view. From the healthy clash and exchange of ideas, I think we all learn. From your posts, I am sure that you are a very passionate Quality professional and, obviously, feel very strong about your positions and how ISO 9001 could "save" the (corporate) World. I have been close to that place. Most of us, quality professionals, tend to think that the World revolves around quality, or at least, it should. We complain that management does not see the light, is short sighted, allow the organization to neglect the customers, etc....true in many cases. But quality has a place. And like anything else, when overstated, people will question you.

I still say it. Don't overpromise what ISO 9001 is or does. I am interested to see the sites you referred to. When I look at the ISO website, I find the following:
http://www.iso.org/iso/en/iso9000-14000/understand/inbrief.html


The ISO 9000 family is primarily concerned with "quality management". This means what the organization does to fulfil:

- the customer's quality requirements, and

- applicable regulatory requirements, while aiming to
- enhance customer satisfaction, and
- achieve continual improvement of its performance in pursuit of these objectives.

http://www.iso.org/iso/en/iso9000-14000/understand/basics/general/basics_4.html
ISO 9000 is primarily concerned with "quality management". In the everyday context, like "beauty", everyone may have his or her idea of what "quality" is. But, in the ISO 9000 context, the standardized definition of quality refers to all those features of a product (or service) which are required by the customer.
"Quality management" means what the organization does to ensure that its products or services satisfy the customer's quality requirements and comply with any regulations applicable to those products or services.


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[Patricia Ravanello]

Well, Patricia, I think we may have found the heart of our disagreement. 4.1 a asks for identification of the processes needed for the QMS. While c goes on to require monitoring and control, there is no mention of objectives, per se, and I argue that objectives do not equal monitoring and control as the terms are used elsewhere. .....\

The mention of objectives is found in 5.4 Planning...
5.4.1 ...quality objectives, including those to meet the requirements of the product are established at relevant functions and levels....

At any rate...I'm content to agree that we don't see eye to eye on this one.

Patricia

 

[Craig H.]

The mention of objectives is found in 5.4 Planning...
5.4.1 ...quality objectives, including those to meet the requirements of the product are established at relevant functions and levels....

At any rate...I'm content to agree that we don't see eye to eye on this one.

Patricia

Hey, Patricia, this has been fun! A very interesting thread to end the week. Have a GREAT weekend, one and all!!