Is a Training Matrix Enough to cover ISO requirements?

AndyN

Moved On
Thanks, Randy - better your blood pressure than mine.............

Training isn't worth anything, neither is a record, without demonstrating competence, as already stated in many threads here.

Competence is a demonstration of skills and knowledge. A 'test' isn't necessary, per se, but someone needs to write up some form of criteria and observe if the operators can do that work, compared to the criteria.

It's not that difficult to come up with a number (say 7 - 10) of activities/tasks/things that someone must be able to do correctly to be allowed to do their work, without supervision. If they can meet the criteria, guess what - you need to take some action, which may include training...........

No other approach is going to be a) useful to the company or b) compliant with the standard.

You run a risk of passing an audit, on the other hand............
 

Randy

Super Moderator
Not too, too long ago I again asked an auditee "How do you define competence?" and to say the look I got was the typical Deer-in-the-headlights would be an understatement (I actually ask this question all the time and for the most part the look never changes from audit to audit...part of the fun of being an auditor I guess...inducing strokes)

(Them) :mg: "You mean we have to define it?"

(Me) :yes:"Duh, yeah. How can you know if its been achieved if you don't know what it is."

(Them) "We give a test after training. If they pass, they are competent."

(Me) "Your testing short term memory, not competence. May I see one of your tests and take it, and what is a passing score?"

(Them) "70%"

The test was multiple choice/true-false on a task using machinery that I have no hands on experience with and wouldn't even know how to start, that when completed the person is put to work doing the job because they proved they were competent upon passing the test.....I scored 90%.

(Me) "OK, so now I am competent, can I go out and operate the machine?"

Would ya'll like to know where this one went and what the result was, or do I even have to waste the time?
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Leader
Admin
Re: Is a Training Matrix enough?

Training isn't the goal, competence is and the answer to your question is NO

You need to show that folks are competent in the tasks they have to perform.

COMPETENCE
I agree of course, but the matrix is just a record. How they would show competence is part of the system, a procedure. It does need to be addressed somehow.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
Re: Is a Training Matrix enough?

I agree of course, but the matrix is just a record. How they would show competence is part of the system, a procedure. It does need to be addressed somehow.


All they have to do is :

1. Identify the required competencies whether they be for quality, environmental, safety or whatever

2. Determine the necessary training, education or skills (or any combination that would be effective) to achieve those competencies.

3. Determine methods to measure the achievement of those competencies

4. Actually measure the achievement of those competencies

4. Generate whatever records are necessary that can provide evidence of it all happening.

Remember the post above? The standard provides the template for making it happen (and almost all of the requirements standards 9001, 14001, 13485, 18001, 9100 say the same thing). Just look below to see what I mean...this isn't rocket science, but it requires a bit of work and committment. The best and easiest example I can suggest is Table 3 from ISO 19011:2002

ISO 9001 & 13485; 6.2.2 Competence, awareness and training
The organization shall
a) determine the necessary competence for personnel performing work affecting product quality,
b) provide training or take other actions to satisfy these needs,
c) evaluate the effectiveness of the actions taken,

ISO 14001; 4.4.2 Competence, training and awareness
The organization shall ensure that any person(s) performing tasks for it or on its behalf that have the potential to cause a significant environmental impact(s) identified by the organization is (are) competent on the basis of
appropriate education, training or experience, and shall retain associated records.

OHSAS 18001; 4.4.2 Competence, training and awareness
The organization shall ensure that any person(s) under its control
performing tasks that can impact on OH&S is (are) competent on the
basis of appropriate education, training or experience, and shall retain
associated records.

PAS 99; 4.4.2 Management of resources
4.4.2.1 The organization shall ensure that all people working for or on behalf of the organization are competent on the basis of appropriate education, training, skills and experience for the tasks assigned to them.
4.4.2.2 The organization shall:
a) evaluate the effectiveness of the actions taken to ensure competence;

ISO 22000; 6.2.2 Competence, awareness and training
The organization shall
a) identify the necessary competencies for personnel whose activities have an impact on food safety,
b) provide training or take other action to ensure personnel have the necessary competencies,
c) ensure that personnel responsible for monitoring, corrections and corrective actions of the food safety management system are trained,
d) evaluate the implementation and the effectiveness of a), b) and c),
 

Anerol C

Trusted Information Resource
Re: Is a Training Matrix enough?

Hi,
I think I'm undestanding the requirements, Thanks to all.
I'm attaching the company training matrix, I don't think that all the "needs" have something to do with competence or are necessary, right? Please take a look and critique it.
Can I write up a Non conformance report?
:nope:
AC
 

Attachments

  • MATRIZ DE CAPACITACIÓN PERSONAL HOURLY 2007.xls
    21 KB · Views: 698

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Leader
Admin
Thanks for attaching your matrix. It gives me a chance to go into a little relevant detail about what Randy is talking about.

Your matrix lists people's positions and the subject of training. However, their type of training and evidence of competency are not addressed in the matrix.

Let's use regulated training as a specific example. In the U.S. there are different types of required training for Lockout Tagout: Affected (machine operator) and Authorized (such as for a machine repair technician). OSHA law states that training will differ for these two groups, and "Authorized" people will need recurring training as conditions require it; such as, when decommissioning or buying new machinery. Alomg the same lines, training for PPE (personal protective equipment) will also vary remarkably between technicians and managers, who must make sure their personnel are using the right PPE and that it is always nearby and in good condition.

And so the matrix is good for showing "done/not done" but you would need more. The matrice's blocks could hold codes referring to procedures or criteria that deal with competencies, and dates completed. In any case, you will need something to show that your training is structured to make sure that people can perform to their positions' specific needs.
 

AndyN

Moved On
Another aspect that has elluded this discussion, is that competencies and training are very specific to the individual and not a job category.

The matrix shows a requirement for a position but not whether the individuals who are assigned those jobs actually need that training.

If you added (not necessarily for us to see) the individuals names and indicated, perhaps, up to four phases of development through which people might progress*, it would be more useful as a management tool.

*These phases could be:

- Not yet competent
- In Training
- Competent
- Trainer
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Leader
Admin
Andy and Randy are right.

I guess it was wrong of me to say the matrix would work.
 

Stijloor

Leader
Super Moderator
Friends,

Very good discussion. :applause:

A note: If the organization has a solid employee performance review process in place, the records can show that the employee is not only competent (demonstrated ability to apply skills and knowledge), but also demonstrates long-term (annual?) performance. Regretfully, that information is usually off-limits (deemed confidential/personal) to the Auditor. So instead, the auditors often have to make do with other documents (see above posts).

Stijloor.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
Friends,

Very good discussion. :applause:

A note: If the organization has a solid employee performance review process in place, the records can show that the employee is not only competent (demonstrated ability to apply skills and knowledge), but also demonstrates long-term (annual?) performance. Regretfully, that information is usually off-limits (deemed confidential/personal) to the Auditor. So instead, the auditors often have to make do with other documents (see above posts).

Stijloor.

This information is rarely off-limits to me. I allow them to hide sensitive issues (blacked out on a photcopy) such as disciplinary actions, but otherwise, I look at these virtually all the time.

Note: private health and personal information is offlimits by law in the USA, and is not viewed.
 
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