Is Accounting a Core process?

[Pancho]

"0.4 Compatibility with other management systems
This International Standard has been aligned with ISO 14001:1996 in order to....
This International Standard does not include requirements specific to other management systems, such as those particular to environmental management, occupational health and safety management, financial management or risk
management. However, this International Standard enables an organization to align or integrate its own quality management system with related management system requirements.

Too often people mix up between what some companies do or what they THINK should do and what the ISO 9001 STANDRD REQUIRES.
Standards as the name implies are generated so that people don't use their own opinions and judgement, whether it's good or bad, but follow a commonly agreed (by the reps of 140 or so countries) set of rules.

Please note that the OP didn't specify ISO 9001 in his question. A management system that does not encompass functions as important as finance and accounting is incomplete regardless of what standard it meets. These functions are basic to the business.

Even if the cited wording of the ISO 9001 standard excludes financial management from the QMS, other sections require it indirectly (i.e. Sections 6.1, 6.3, 8.2.3). The output of the finance and accounting process is critical to proper measurement of the system, and such measurements are required for management to meet the standard.

So, while the standard may give an "out" to those businesses that do not want to include Finance and Accounting in their QMS, these same businesses should have an alternate management system for this critical function. Why would anyone want to maintain two different systems? After all, the standard "enables an organization to align or integrate its own quality management system with related management system requirements".

That's why I think the answer to the OP is yes.

 

[Jim Wynne]

Please note that the OP didn't specify ISO 9001 in his question.

But he did post his question in the ISO 9001 forum.

A management system that does not encompass functions as important as finance and accounting is incomplete regardless of what standard it meets. These functions are basic to the business.

There is nothing in evidence that indicates that the OP's company's management system doesn't address finance/accounting. ISO 9001 is for quality management systems.

This all boils down to a matter of choice, not necessity.

 

[joherjerwalla]

Anything & everything one does for the success of an organisation is subject to assessments , in the spirit of ISO 9001. However, the extent to which an ISO 9001 certification/ internal audit, actions will intervene, the Financial activities-- is to be evaluated --depending on the situation.
An example, Supplier Delivery performance is affected badly, due to non payment of dues by the organisation, at the agreed credit period--- calls for investigation/ intervention/ audit of the finance/accounting function. A improved process can be demanded from the CFO/accounts department/Management, for this. Supplier non payment, on time will also result in final Customer dissatisfaction.

The Intent of the Standard, should be looked at, rather than , achievement of a Certificate. With this logic even the IT processes are subject to discipline & included in the scope of assessments, in the new world Business scenarios wherein ERP(eg SAP/ BaaN etc.) drives most organisations.
Some of the Friends out there , will contest what I say. The easier solution is BUY the Certificate!!!
Best Regards TO ALL FROM INDIA !!

 

[howste]

I have yet to encounter an ISO auditor that goes to finance/accounting
None in the last 30 years....

I frequently do when it is defined by the company as one of their QMS processes.

Howste,
Yes I did search for "financial" through the pdf's serach function but somehow I missed it. I did a renewed search and found one mention of it, and guess what it says? That financial management IS NOT WITHIN THE SCOPE OF IS09001

You read the first line of my post, but to me it seems you ignored the rest. For your convenience I'll quote it again below:

Well-managed companies tend to integrate their QMS with all aspects of their business. If the company chooses to identify finance or accounting processes as part of their QMS, then as an auditor I'm obligated to audit some aspects of those processes. I don't need to audit the regulatory aspects of the processes, but I should audit the parts defined in their QMS - particularly the results.

If there was no relationship, why would this reference be included in the bibliography?

ISO 10014:2006, Quality management — Guidelines for realizing financial and economic benefits

Too often people mix up between what some companies do or what they THINK should do and what the ISO 9001 STANDRD REQUIRES.

I hope you're not implying that I said that ISO 9001 requires audits of the financial management system of companies. If you'll read my post, I clearly didn't.

 

[w_grunfeld]

In that case I appologize, I got confused because this thread is under ISO9001-QMS
I also agree that If the company chooses to identify finance or accounting processes as part of their QMS, then as an auditor I'm obligated to audit some aspects of those processes."
I can't argue that, not knowing what is your expertize in accounting,nor having encountered yet a company that does that.Unless a QMS auditor has a strong background like being a former CPA, can't see how his audit can possibly have a real added value....with all due respect.
Every sizable company has aN INDEPENDENT CPA, has to abide by a myriad of regulations and accounting standards, public companies are required by law to have an Internal Auditor (no relation to quality auditor!) who reports to the board. Finaly to sign a company's balance sheet at year's end its CPA has anywhere from 1 to a dozen CPA auditors swirming on site and fine combing through hundreds and thousands of records.
And still we all remember Enron...after which came Sarbanes -Oxley. If you feel you can add value by your audits, welcome. I don't and won't
Not to speak of having yet to meet a CFO who welcomes such audits!
So I am out of this discussions- all who feel they should audit their company's financial management good luck!
Btw , REDACTED harassment is nowadays a big issue/concern for all companies. Any company that ignores the subject is prone to disaster. They must have a complaints officer, internal procedures on it and so on.
Is anyone here for including REDACTED harassment management into the QMS?
Lots of similarities : policy, procedures, prevention rather than inspection, continuos improvement, controlling non-conforming employees (segregate in MRB store until final disposition...to name just a few

 

[howste]

Is anyone here for including REDACTED harassment management into the QMS?
Lots of similarities : policy, procedures, prevention rather than inspection, continuos improvement, controlling non-conforming employees (segregate in MRB store until final disposition...to name just a few

I've seen plenty of companies with identified REDACTED harassment training along with QMS training requirements. They generally track records of such training along with other training records.

 

[Groo3]

For us, accounting speaks to the bottom line, how we did financially. Our Management Review meetings always include a review of the financials; where we are making money (including sales, continuous improvement projects, production goals, etc.) and where we are spending money (including training, special projects, preventive maintenance, repairs, etc).

Most of our accounting documents are corporate level procedures; our Site Controller reports to our corporate headquarters with a dotted line to the site. In this regard, our accounting function is a service platform (or whatever else you wish to call it, hub service, etc.) for our site. Just because they are a service platform for the site, it does not mean they are any less important, just that they are helping provide a service for our site. Our financial audits are managed by our corporate headquarters and sometimse contracted out to independent financial auditing firms.

I forgot this... Accounting in ISO 9001

Thanks Marc, lots of similar discussions there.