Is consultant prohibited in ISO9001 audit?

[Al Rosen]

Petsonnally I will not allow them to be involved in any way. The company rep can leave the room and ask his consultant just keep him/her away from me. Most are pompous know-it-alls with very a poor understanding of QMS systems.

You are generalizing, which leads me to believe that you might not be objective. Meanwhile, you made a statement implying there was a rule that consultants weren't allowed to attend an audit. Also unsubstantiated. Who's being pompous?

 

[Marc]

Petsonnally I will not allow them to be involved in any way.

You can follow your CB employer's rules for their clients, but you can not make your own rules.

You claim "years of auditing experience". I also have many years of experience in a number of areas and the rule always was that a consultant can not answer an auditor's questions. Going back to 1990 I have never been restricted from attending an audit as an observer, nor have I been restricted from "sidebar" conversations with my client's employees.

My concern is that you are stating information which can be confusing, and that some of what you post is just plain wrong. I am also concerned that you are being a bit overboard in, for example, your expressing your personal distaste for consultants. We get it, you don't like consultants.

If your employer has such a restriction, let us see it - Post it here and tell us who your employer is. I am especially interested in seeing where your employer states that a consultant can not be present as an observer.

 

[AndyN]

You can follow your CB employer's rules for their clients,

And, what's more, one CB doesn't write the rules for all of them!

 

[Randy]

I am a CB auditor. We do not have to even allow a consultant in the same room/area where the audit is taking place nor can they answer questions on behalf of the auditee.

As am I for the last 18 years or so and I couldn't care less about a consultant, Mickey Mouse or Santa Claus in the room or participating in an audit. Show me where a consultant or anyone else identified by the "organization" as being a valid and authorized representative can't participate in an audit by anyone with the power and right to do so and I'll be the 1st bow down to your apparent fantastic level of expertise and experience....And don't say CB policy because it's bullfritters and unenforcable

 

[AndyN]

nor have I been restricted from "sidebar" conversations with my client's employees.

Indeed, Marc. Judging by the esoteric and arcane terminology used by many auditors (often quoting from a standard that few have ever read) when questioning people, it's almost REQUIRED the consultant be in the room to translate for the client. Add to that the fact that auditors are NOT well versed in the actual requirements - let's take "maintained" vs "retained", calibration traceability and training vs competency to name but 3, and it's VITAL that a consultant be in the room to avoid a major misunderstanding. Of course, when (some) CB is paid by the non-conformity, it's in their interests for their auditors to write as many non-conformities as possible, to generate the extra cash...

 

[Ninja]

but most of this thread has seemed that way so far so I guess it's OK.

it's almost REQUIRED the consultant be in the room to translate for the client

This reminds me of my first time being audited (internal audit outsourced to an SOB consultant).
When the language barrier reached a certain extent (languages being "quality" vs. "engineer")...I considered reaching across the table and just punching him.

A translator who knew 'quality-speak' would have made the experience smooth and pleasant.

"Design" to me meant blueprints and drawings..."design" in quality speak means 'planning' in quality speak...that simple thing...four major findings... devolving into "you did go to school, didn't you?"...best internal auditor we ever had...I miss him (but still don't want to be in the same room).

 

[Marc]

Add to that the fact that auditors are NOT well versed in the actual requirements

Let's be fair here. There are "good" auditors and "bad" auditors, just like there are "good" consultants and there are "bad" consultants. Most of the auditors I have interacted with have been knowledgable. There have been some who clearly had various different interpretations of various parts of a standard, just as I have my interpretations of the same clause.

Here is a page I wrote in the early days here: ISO 9000 / IATF 16949 -- Who-What is the Elsmar Cove?

I also want to remind folks that what is now Elsmar.com I started in January 1996 as QS9000.com. I started this website because there were so many different interpretations of various clauses in what was then QS-9000, as well as in requirements such as document control, calibration and many other disciplines.

I did do some searches earlier today and I saw a lot of this:

A translator who knew 'quality-speak' would have made the experience smooth and pleasant.

See my link in this post. Well said. In many "specialty" arenas, such as food processors, it is standard practice to have a professional consultant attend the audit to ensure that what an auditor asks is understood by the client company's representative. There are, of course, pros and cons to having a consultant observe the audit. Here is one discussion I found in a forum: Value of having SQF Consultant available during the audit? - SQF Food

Part of my problem with @Yukon 's posts is they tend to be adversarial. My belief is none of this should be adversarial, either here in the forum, or in registrar/auditor/client companies. This is not the place to disparage auditors, consultants or others. This isn't Reddit and it isn't Twitter. This is a discussion forum, not a combat zone.

 

[Yukon]

I suggest you contact your CB and ask them to forward you a copy of their policy re. Consultant involvement. There is NO formal ISO requirement just CB policy. Petsonnally I will not allow them to be involved in any way. The company rep can leave the room and ask his consultant just keep him/her away from me. Most are pompous know-it-alls with very a poor understanding of QMS systems.

I did answer your question - see above.

 

[Marc]

I did answer your question - see above.

I am waiting for your CB's rules.

 

[AndyN]

Consultants are not permitted to participate in the audit so I don't have to worry about who is answering questions.

That isn't an answer. I cited a specific example. Where, let's say, a consultant was contracted to be the Quality Director pro tem. You'd have them removed for the audit?