Is consultant prohibited in ISO9001 audit?

[Al Rosen]

Unless the company is lying the org chart would designate him as Director of Quality ( you said that's his title). Clients lie to us all the time, they just think we are too stupid to know we are being lied to. You see we (CB) Auditors would never consider saying outright that you were lying to us because you would call our office and report it. I know every trick in the book my "friend" , I've been around too long and have participatedin too many audits to be fooled by rank amateurs.

I'm aware that a client might not be honest, but there's a difference when a client lies to you and you suggesting that he lie. BTW, why do you hide behind a nom de plume?

 

[Yukon]

I'm aware that a client might not be honest, but there's a difference when a client lies to you and you suggesting that he lie. BTW, why do you hide behind a nom de plume?

I hide behind nothing. My real name is not being made public. Even if I put it up on line you would probably think it was false. My words, my thoughts, my beliefs are what is important.

EDIT: Removed an inappropriate edit.

 

[Jen Kirley]

CB rules (procedures) tend to reflect intent to abide by accreditation requirements, so yes I think they count.

ISO/TC176/SC2 has published a paper about Working with Consultants. It might provide some guidance as to expectations.

I once audited a site with an EMS that had been put in place by the consultant and in large part was still being run by the consultant. There is no clear rule against that, but one should take care when including this person.

 

[Nagano_I]

Thank you all. I emailed to ask the accreditation body of that CB. The accreditation body confirmed to me that there is no rule to prohibit the consultant presenting during the audit. Then I asked the CB to show their own documented procedure stating such prohibition the CB said there is no such document. I discussed with the president of my company - the management agreed easily to just change to another CB as this CB shows they are making rules out of the air with no basis and thus not trustworthy for their certification activities. Who knows, in their audit they can raise any nonconformity out of the air!!

 

[Eredhel]

Well at least Nagano was WELL prepared for what needed to be done .

 

[Marc]

I once audited a site with an EMS that had been put in place by the consultant and in large part was still being run by the consultant.

Some years ago I was technically on the company organization charts of a number of small companies for a few years. They were small companies so there was the issue of the learning curve, the problem being so few people. After a few years the owners and personnel were at a point where they didn't really need me any more (in my opinion) and I "quit". To them it was good as they didn't want to hire someone full-time - I was relatively cheap.

I have also known a number of small companies that did the same with consultants in their special field. They did not need a full time person. Having a part-time person, a consultant, was cost effective and fulfilled their needs.

this CB shows they are making rules out of the air with no basis and thus not trustworthy for their certification activities.

This is the type of thing that gives certification bodies a bad name. What you did was excellent, by the way. This is also why @Yukon has been challenged in a number of threads here. He (I assume a he) is also a reason auditors are sometimes pounced on as a problem. Most auditors are good at what they do. Unfortunately there are some who are not just bad auditors, they're adversarial. These auditors give auditors a bad rap in general.

 

[Randy]

Unless the company is lying the org chart would designate him as Director of Quality ( you said that's his title). Clients lie to us all the time, they just think we are too stupid to know we are being lied to. You see we (CB) Auditors would never consider saying outright that you were lying to us because you would call our office and report it. I know every trick in the book my "friend" , I've been around too long and have participated in too many audits to be fooled by rank amateurs.

Clients lie to us all the time?
Interesting thought.
So if clients lie to us all the time is the expectation, then we've lost the expectation of objectivity and impartiality for the auditor and the process?

Don't know about you or your vast experience, but in my short time of delivering somewhere around 200 accredited Lead Auditor courses (creating and getting them accredited by IRCA & RABQSA/Exemplar Global as well)...I distinctly remember telling those folks that spent thousands of dollars, who had the expectation of someone with real world, hands on experience, that unless absolutely proven otherwise, the client is to be considered honest and truthful in their answers and with the objective evidence presented to you....We have some of my former students in our audience here and they may remember me saying that or something similar.

Clients are liars! Fantastic statement, belief, and audit approach.

 

[mattador78]

We have used a consultant here for years in our ISO audits and not had one issue raised by any CB we have used. He has been in charge of our MS since its instigation until I took on my role last year he has always been named as part of the management structure.

 

[AndyN]

ISO/TC176/SC2 has published a paper about Working with Consultants. It might provide some guidance as to expectations.

I note that the authors, predominately, come from a third party background...

 

[Jen Kirley]

I note that the authors, predominately, come from a third party background...

I would rather expect as much, given the site is sponsored by the Technical Committee and the papers bear the IAF mark.