Is ISO 9001 Cresting? Is a rebellion in the works?

[Marc]

Also see this discussion thread: ISO 9001 - Snake Oil? A discussion of the validity/value of ISO 9001

 

[Helmut Jilling]

Seems like your registrar is one of the very few who is taking away certificates of registration ... most are fighting for market share and trying to get more customers through the door.

Unless the data doesn't support your case?

They have actually pulled a few. No registrars are in the business to withdraw certs, but some clients are just not worth taking a risk with.

My reference was actually that as an auditor, I tend to select clients who want to do this stuff right. I won't stay long with a client who justs wants to have a cert. Just not worth it.

 

[ScottK]

this thread is about 4 1/2 years old....

seems to me that the desirability of ISO9001 registration is no different than it was when this thread was started. I'm making my judgement based on what I've seen in experience requirements over this period of time.

Six Sigma has grown like a monster since then, but has it overshadowed ISO9001? Sure has taken up a lot more space in trade mags.
But I think the general public is a lot more clear on ISO than 6s.

 

[Wes Bucey]

this thread is about 4 1/2 years old....

seems to me that the desirability of ISO9001 registration is no different than it was when this thread was started. I'm making my judgement based on what I've seen in experience requirements over this period of time.

Six Sigma has grown like a monster since then, but has it overshadowed ISO9001? Sure has taken up a lot more space in trade mags.
But I think the general public is a lot more clear on ISO than 6s.

I beg to differ. Walk into a school, bank or hospital and ask to talk to the chief administrator. Hold up two cards, One printed with "Six Sigma" and the other with "ISO Quality Management Standard."

Which card do you REALLY think that administrator will recognize and be able to make some comment on?

 

[Paul Simpson]

I beg to differ. Walk into a school, bank or hospital and ask to talk to the chief administrator. Hold up two cards, One printed with "Six Sigma" and the other with "ISO Quality Management Standard."

Which card do you REALLY think that administrator will recognize and be able to make some comment on?

Is this a poll? Not sure what the point of this is. If I have to take a view it would be that ISO is still generally better known than 6 sigma. Perhaps Wes has some information he would like to share on his examples ......

 

[Wes Bucey]

Is this a poll? Not sure what the point of this is. If I have to take a view it would be that ISO is still generally better known than 6 sigma. Perhaps Wes has some information he would like to share on his examples ......

You have to figure by now, Paul, I don't make a statement I can't support.

The point is ISO is very insular and primarly restricted to manufacturing facilities. Many of the rank and file (not "quality") folks in automotive cannot make a connection between TS16949 and any ISO Standard.

I chose the three types of organizations exactly because their trade journals are awash with Six Sigma buzz. Note the buzz is NOT about 3 ppm, but is entwined with Lean philosophies.

Let's add folks who work in life insurance or retail (even McDonalds burger flippers) and they won't have a clue about either one.

It's easy to infer "everyone" knows when one's everyday circle are immersed in things to do with a particular discipline. It is embarrrassing when folks ask what you do and you say, "I'm a consultant for [insert field of Quality here]" and your interrogators respond, "Never heard of it!"

 

[Paul Simpson]

You have to figure by now, Paul, I don't make a statement I can't support.

I have a strong impression of your statements , Wes. Not sure you summarized my feelings too well here, though.

The point is ISO is very insular and primarly restricted to manufacturing facilities.

Can't agree with this statement. Far from being insular ISO is by nature International and applied to a whole range of different industries. Your exerience may be of ISO being applied to manufacturing, mine is not. Just Google ISO Service Industry - 24million odd entries!

Many of the rank and file (not "quality") folks in automotive cannot make a connection between TS16949 and any ISO Standard.

Again not sure about this. Non "quality" people robably aren't interested in the particular standard, only the requirements they have to work to. Anyone who can't make a connection between ISO TS and ISO hasn't read it. The wording of ISO is reproduced in its entirety in TS.

I chose the three types of organizations exactly because their trade journals are awash with Six Sigma buzz. Note the buzz is NOT about 3 ppm, but is entwined with Lean philosophies.

In answer to the two points:

1. There is a buzz about 6 sigma and that is fine but you don't want to give too much credence to the latest flavour of the month
2. Mixing up lean and 6 sigma is just trying to create the "next big thing" the philosohies are totally different albeit the tools have a place in any organization - including those that use ISO

Let's add folks who work in life insurance or retail (even McDonalds burger flippers) and they won't have a clue about either one.

It is true not all tools and techniques are appropriate to all organizations - I never said that. There are plenty of industries I know nothing about - doesn't mean they have less worth or that I run them down.

It's easy to infer "everyone" knows when one's everyday circle are immersed in things to do with a particular discipline. It is embarrrassing when folks ask what you do and you say, "I'm a consultant for [insert field of Quality here]" and your interrogators respond, "Never heard of it!"

Again I don't require or expect that everyone will know about my industry (say ISO) or feel any less about them if they don't. Far less will I feel embaressed about my profession if someone I meet doesn't know it. There are plenty of branches of medicine I don't know about - if a consultant introduces him/herself to me and I have to confess ignorance I wouldn't expect them to feel the need to hang their heads in shame.

 

[Aaron Lupo]

I beg to differ. Walk into a school, bank or hospital and ask to talk to the chief administrator. Hold up two cards, One printed with "Six Sigma" and the other with "ISO Quality Management Standard."

Which card do you REALLY think that administrator will recognize and be able to make some comment on?

I agree with Wes on this 100%. You have a much better chance of people recognizing Six Sigma over ISO. At least in the US.

 

[Helmut Jilling]

I agree with Wes on this 100%. You have a much better chance of people recognizing Six Sigma over ISO. At least in the US.

Huh? I would suggest that you should look at the numbers behind each.

I think there are hundreds of thousands more ISO 9001 companies than Six Sigma. I am not opposed to Six Sigma. But, it is a program, not an international standard. Six Sigma fits well on top of an ISO 9001 system, but generally does not take the place of it.

 

[JaneB]

Huh?

The point is ISO is very insular and primarly restricted to manufacturing facilities.

Really cannot accept that as true. Don't know where the 'insular' comes from, and as for manufacturing... the Standard itself contradicts that.
Almost my entire clientele is service businesses!

Why blame the Standard? Isn't that a little like a workman blaming the tool? You can use it properly or drop it on your foot - the choice is yours.

And if someone doesn't understand what I do, I don't really mind. I try to describe it in terms that work for them, but if overall it's still way outside their field of experience, so be it.

If as quality professionals we aren't imbued with a passion for quality and a passion for helping others realise what quality is, and can be, and can do for organisations that work with it, then we're probably better off in another field of work. What about channelling our energy into trying to improve things - like demanding better service from certifiers and auditors?

The more I work with ISO 9001, the more I respect it & why various bits are in it. No, it's not perfect (what ever is?) Yes, it can be improved (what can't?). Six Sigma can do some wonderful things, but no, it isn't a standard. (As for which of 9001 and Six Sigma is "better known", does it really matter? Spare me from 'better known' being a good criteria, there's enough celebrities around famous for being famous as it is... )


And the folks who do it 'just for the certificate'? Yup, they're around. But one has a choice as to whether you will or won't choose to work with or for them. I won't. I'll earn less rather than do that kind of work.

The IT industry has a well known saying: Garbage In, Garbage Out.

No one can or will ever get more from their quality project, their quality system - even their life!! -- than they're prepared to put into it in the first place.