Is ISO 9001 Cresting? Is a rebellion in the works?

[Sidney Vianna]

When I think of changes to wish for, I wish that clients were better informed of the actual role of the registrar, so that they could, when necessary, demand better service and reject auditors (or certifiers!) of poor standard / over-rigidity / throwbacks to 1994 mode etc, without worrying that this would rebound on them, or that the auditors would get 'em back, etc. And I wish that more people could understand and see how a good auditor can add enormous value to an organisation.

Jane, I share your thoughts. I also wish the customers of certified organization would keep their supplier's registrar "accountable" for low performing quality systems. I am sick and tired of listening to registrar reps saying that an audit is just a snapshot in time and there is no connection between the certificate and the performance of certified system.

 

[potdar]

Thus, I've assisted clients to switch to another registrar when they weren't getting competent or valuable audits or the level of service they had a right to expect and demand, and each time the client has been pleased with the results. And I've complained about auditors on behalf of a client (only with client permission of course) on some very rare occasions when the performance of the auditor was quite unacceptable. Again, on every occasion it has improved things for the client.

So you do meet such guys

I wonder if experiences vary in different countries? Also, of course, we're talking only individual experience here, rather than hard data.

Yes they do. The results of this poll should give a fair indication of what most of us encounter.

But I do aim for, hope for, look for and work for things to improve. If I couldn't do that and had lost hope of anything ever changing in the field, I wouldn't stay in it. Because how on earth could I promote a Standard including requirements for continuous improvement to my clients if I didn't believe in, and practice that, myself?

Same here. Only, I have stopped being part of a CB three years back. My Lead auditorship has already lapsed. But I am still uptodate (I hope). I am a member here and discuss my views with you all (It helps). Once in a while I do consultancy using ISO 9001 or TS, because it is only once in a while that I meet a client I feel like doing consultancy for. Rest, I politely turn away saying "You have come to the wrong address Sir, I am not in this business any more."

But these are the clients that keep my hope alive. they want to do it for themselves. Not for the customer or for the registrar.

 

[JaneB]

So you do meet such guys

Meet clients who want to get value from doing ISO 9001, not just something to hold up the wall? Yup, sure do.

The results of this poll should give a fair indication of what most of us encounter.

Most of us? Sorry, kimosabe, but I'd have a bit of trouble accepting a poll as vaguely worded as this one, and as open to subjective interpretations, could be taken as the claimed proof of what seems to me a somewhat different issue.


GIGO - Garbage In, Garbage Out. Almost the first thing I find out from the client is why they want to do it. And walk away if I don't like the answer.

But you raise some interesting points - I do wish there was more real, objective research on the value of ISO 9001!

However, all other things being equal, better a company that does have it than one with 'no idea'.

 

[potdar]

Well Jane,

What I find is that both of us see the same things. Meet the same type of people. Act / react to them in the same fashion. Only, I have gone a bit cynical about the whole issue while you continue to be ever hopeful and fiercely protective about the concept.

Good for you that your region seems to have more clients that dont get classified as "Garbage". I am not so lucky here.

But one thing is very true. The CBs and ABs that all of us refer to are absolutely the same. I can give you a long list of CBs (local or global) here that are accreditated to some revered ANZ or european ABs. You wouldnt want to touch them with a long pole. Lets not discuss their customers. Or the hapless customers' customers.

 

[qualitygal]

I'm surprised this thread has continued for so long. But what is that really saying? When I was growing up my mom was the Quality Control supervisor for a large glass mfg company. My dad was a Master Carpenter and we were raised (through the 50s and 60s when the USA was #1 in everything) to believe that any job worth doing (ones you got paid for in particular) was worth doing well. We were raised to have pride in what we accomplished.

It bothers me that we have to be told how to produce a Quality Product. There seems to be an attitude of entitlement, especially amongst American youth, these days that reflects a deeper problem. Us Baby Boomers seem to have created a situation that leads our children to believe they can have what they want, when they want and they don't have to put forth any effort to get it. They call it the "King Baby Syndrome". Nothing is ever good enough but they don't want to do anything about it. My boyfriend (Partner) and I have 6 kids between us and, believe me we try everyday to instill a sense of pride in a job well done. We teach them the right way to do things. And if they don't they are retrained until they get it right and they are rewarded for their efforts. Quality bleeds into every facet of our lives. (I have been accused of being a Quality Nazi)

My experience with many of my clients, especially those in the Oil Patch, is that to do business in a lot of countries you have to be ISO certified. In countries were the government regulates everything, i.e., Mexico, Canada, the UAE, Suadi, Venezuela, etc., you can't work with them without it.

Maybe people like the good folks of the Cove can figure it out. Maybe there needs to be a revolution. Mentoring programs or something like that would help. In my ISO orientation classes I make an attempt to show the employees how their efforts do contribute to the greater good. Trickle down quality, if you will.

Thanks for letting me stand on my soap box. Keep up the good works.

Qualitygal

 

[Bill Pflanz]

I wished I could reference the following comments about the boomers but unfortunately I did not keep it. Regardless, I think it supports Qualitygal's comments.

Boomers have gotten our way ever since we arrived in this world, and the onset of gray hair, bifocals, and arthritis is not going to moderate our unswerving self-indulgence. We are the same people, after all, who forced the lowering of the drinking age when we were young, so we could drink, and forced it back up when we got older, so our kids couldn't. On top of that, we're used to the best of everything, and plenty of it. We weren't dubbed the Me Generation because we neglect our own needs, Junior. If politicians think the current geezers are greedy, they ain't seen nothin' yet. - Source unknown

Bill Pflanz

 

[Marc]

Re: Certificate still important

ISO is still important (not necessarily Quality) purely from business point of view. "self-discipline to maintain a QMS without registration" is almost unthinkable !

Still true in most places, I'd bet...

 

[Helmut Jilling]

So you do meet such guys ...

Once in a while I do consultancy using ISO 9001 or TS, because it is only once in a while that I meet a client I feel like doing consultancy for. Rest, I politely turn away saying "You have come to the wrong address Sir, I am not in this business any more."

But these are the clients that keep my hope alive. they want to do it for themselves. Not for the customer or for the registrar.

There are many good companies that want to do these things the right way for the right reasons. And there are many bad companies who try to take shortcuts. That is how the free enterprise system works. But it does work. Eventually the marketplace decides who is right.

PS: Also, the last ISO stats I read showed global ISO registrations still going strong, so our little straw poll may not show a very clear picture.

 

[Marc]

That's basically my position. I screen clients these days.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

That's basically my position. I screen clients these days.

Good for you, Marc. It is always good to be in a position that you can "select and approve" your clients. I remember back in the early 90's doing an ISO 9001 audit of a company that had a "customer screening and approval" process, modelled after the Solectron way. That was impressive. If the potential customer's growth potential and business model did not align with that organization's objectives, they would decline becoming a supplier to them.

It was the first time I saw such a customer screening process. It made sense then.