Is ISO 9001 Cresting? Is a rebellion in the works?

[Pataha]

Well, it probably is time to revisit the question. My company requires all business units to be certified. This requires for the Business unit in the states to audit possible local suppliers to a compliant quality, safety, and environmental management system(s). What has occured that the audit findings for the closing meeting, I can now write before I even arrive at the suppliers' location. It also provides opportunities for Canadian companies who are not only certified but can demostrate a comminttment to quality to be awarded contracts.

Whether there is a certified system or not, there is some sort system to preform processes (written or not), that will provide a strong indication of the commitment to quality. So define Quality, listen to the customer, and commit!!!!

 

[Brunetta]

Well, it probably is time to revisit the question. My company requires all business units to be certified. This requires for the Business unit in the states to audit possible local suppliers to a compliant quality, safety, and environmental management system(s). What has occured that the audit findings for the closing meeting, I can now write before I even arrive at the suppliers' location. It also provides opportunities for Canadian companies who are not only certified but can demostrate a comminttment to quality to be awarded contracts.

Whether there is a certified system or not, there is some sort system to preform processes (written or not), that will provide a strong indication of the commitment to quality. So define Quality, listen to the customer, and commit!!!!

:mg: I certainly hope I am misreading the emphasized blue type (emphasis mine).
How can you write findings before you arrive at the suppliers location?

I am still not convinced of the value of certification other than it does enforce a certain air of discipline for those organizations that originally seek certification due to a customer requirement (especially after having to shelling out $$ for a verification audit to clear a major nonconformance)
That discipline, eventually over time can result in efficiency and effectiveness improvements in the QMS because at some point someone in the organization will find a better way to skin the cat at maintaining compliance ....or drop certification altogether.

Which is precisely why I hope I misunderstood your post and hope that your audits not only include a "desk audit" of the QMS, but also observation of the process in action, and verification by objective evidence. Otherwise...why do a supplier "desk" audit vs. some alternative evaluation that may be more effective?

 

[kwbang]

Re: Certificate still important

I agree with you.. as far as I know it is main certification not only for quality but also business for sales portions in Korea where I live.

 

[Eric Pollard]

Hi, I just wandered in while searching for information to help my client, a VERY small engineering research firm prepare for a Government contract that requires ISO 9001 certification. The majority of the services, documentation , etc., lead me to believe the process has become somewhat debased. If my client buys the proper manual, creates the proper forms, and completes them religiously for a short period of time, they will probably get certified. But I struggle to convince them, and myself at times, that attention to the spirit of the standards rather than the letter will, in the run, yield the intended dividends, beyond of course being allow to bid on contracts with this requirement.

 

[Pataha]

Hi Eric,

Good for you wandering in.
If you are looking for advice - I would stay away from "Store Bought" systems. Usually having a QM manual off the shelf, you lose the opportunity to perform a gap analysis on the current methods and culture. If you want a successful QM program that is integrated into the company's culture and will then help improve processes that will increase efficiency and customer satisfaction. The company is doing activities that touch up elements of the standard and this will provide leverage to creating a system that works for them.
Some tools/books that should help are: (some can be found in your local library)
The Allan J Sayle process approach - charts are posted in the Cove. It is from "Management Audits 3rd Edition ISBN: 0 9511739-0-1
Russ Jones "Proving Continuous Improvement with Profit Ability" ISBN: 978-0-87389-742
James L. Heskett, W. Earl Sasser, Jr., Leonard A. Schlesinger "The Service Profit Chain" ISBN: 0-684-83256-9

The following you will need to purchase -
ISO 9000:2005 Quality management systems -- Fundamentals and vocabulary
ISO 9001:2008 Quality management systems -- Requirements
ISO 9004:2009 Managing for the sustained success of an organization -- A quality management approach
ISO 19011:2002 Guidelines for quality and/or environmental management systems auditing
If you have not selected an accredited Registrar for the certification audit and the follow-up audits and you are in North America, I would recommend UL. But before I would use them, I would get quotes for others.

Another suggestion, is do use your selected accredited Registrar as a consultant to assist with the set-up of your QM system or for clearing any findings.

One more suggestion, be careful of anyone who has not kept with the standards and the last time they looked at them was in the 1990s.

The parting statement - Like anything else the value you will get out of setting up a QM system, will be what you put into it. So please do not fall in with the lip service crowd.

 

[Eric Pollard]

Many thanks for the references, tips and words of encouragement.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Another suggestion, is do use your selected accredited Registrar as a consultant to assist with the set-up of your QM system or for clearing any findings.

:mg: What you just suggested is a MAJOR violation of the accredited certification process. The Certification Body CAN NOT be involved with advice on implementing the system. At least not under the IAF, ISO 17021-based accredited certification process. That is a MUST NOT DO. If ANAB had a representative here, they could start an investigation of your certification program and probe if this dual role of your CB indeed happened.

 

[bobdoering]

If ANAB had a representative here, they could start an investigation of your certification program and probe if this dual role of your CB indeed happened.

I believe only if it is the same organization as is auditing you. If another organization provides the consulting, I think you are in good shape.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

I believe only if it is the same organization as is auditing you. If another organization provides the consulting, I think you are in good shape.

I don't understand your comment. Obviously, if you have a consulting company assisting you implementing a system and a totally unrelated CB assessing and certifying your system, there is no problem. But the advice provided was

Another suggestion, is do use your selected accredited Registrar as a consultant to assist with the set-up of your QM system or for clearing any findings.

 

[Pataha]

Sidney Vianna,

You are right. I somehow left out the NOT.

There should be a separation which is what I was going for.

Good catch.

However, I could list some CB's that during the CA or SA audits suggest and push their separate consultant arm of the business. Which is what I do NOT recommend.

Sorry about the confusion over the lost on one word. Good thing I was not writing either a peace treaty or contract.