Is ISO 9001 Cresting? Is a rebellion in the works?

[John Broomfield]

Re: Two different issues?

Marc, I think these are two different issues. First, I think ISO 9001 is at, or close to it's peak. Those who WANT to register probably already are, those who HAVE to register probably are as well. I see this as a mature market (from a consultant's viewpoint). The heyday of having more clients than we can deal with are beyond us now. This can be evidenced by the drop in consultant fees.

The issue of the rebellion will never die! I see an expanded call for self-declaration (thanks in part to ISO 14001). Because the competitive advantage of registration is pretty much gone, I think more companies will say things amounting to they do not see the need to pay a registrar to pay them for something they already know!

If a company has the self-discipline to maintain a QMS without registration, then self-certification/declaration might be useful (Carl’s posts reflect his organization might be a good example). Most companies I work with lack such self-discipline and I see a gradual decay back to 50’s manufacturing.

Hey Dave,

I have an IS0 9OOO license plate too.

I agree it is two different issues according to the purpose of using ISO 9001:

1. Use of ISO 9001 certification to sell or buy
2. Use of ISO 9001 to develop a basic management system

Purpose 1 above should change so certification is focused on the measuring and reporting publicly the performance of management systems (using an agreed certification standard).

I am pretty sure that purpose 2 will live on as ISO 9001 is continually improved to result in management systems that deliver the performance required by shareholders, employees and customers.

Happy motoring,

John

 

[rfjuice]

Re: Two different issues?

I believe my company pursued ISO certification for the sole purpose as a selling point.

 

[AndyN]

Re: Two different issues?

I believe my company pursued ISO certification for the sole purpose as a selling point.

Has it realized any benefits, internally, since?

 

[rfjuice]

Re: Two different issues?

We have gained 1 customer and 2 products.


Other than A LOT of paperwork, nothing has changed internally.

Edit: I must add this. We did have a fair share of paperwork before ISO. We had an in-process inspection page, various drawings/work instructions, CA/PA, material scrap, parts lists, test data sheets, NCR forms, ect ect.... Since ISO "implementation" Management feels the need to have an NCR for everything.

A person puts a part in backwards>>>NCR>>>C.A.R.>>>50% they'll want an internal audit.

Lots of things we do have the possibility for human error(which you can't eliminate) although we try to make it as error free as possible.

 

[Lexylou]

This is an interesting thread....I have been the champion for ISO in my company for 11 years now. We were told by our customer that we needed to be in order to keep their business. Even though we were told by our customer to get certified, we had seen huge benefits from being certified. Since than another customer required us to be certified. We later went from ISO to AS9100 about 5-6 years ago.

Our 1st customer is now requiring the tool shop (our sister company) to be certified to ISO in which I have been asked to help them with their documentation and implementation. I believe they too can benefit by a more structure quality system.

I would really hate to think that all this effort might soon go away or to another type of quality system. That happened to me before years back when ISO was the new kid on the block, I remember people saying back than that ISO is just another fad and in time it will go away, why bother putting all that time into it for nothing.

I'm concerned now to go through this cost of certification on the tool shop and in a year from now if ISO goes south, my president asks "what happen?

To be honest with you...in all the 11 years that we were ISO/AS we had not acquired any new customers, we only maintained the customers that we had which is still good. But one of the reasons that was sited back than was that it should increase our customer base.

 

[rfjuice]

Before we implemented ISO, I asked a person in top management, how many customers we didn't gain because we lacked ISO certification. I asked this because management was informing us that gaining ISO certification was a huge step in garnering a larger customer base. The response was:

"only one in the last 5-6 years and they(the potential customer) wouldn't have been a good one because they are now bankrupt."

Now we are certified and have gained only the one "customer".

Due to the poor implementation, I can't say, whether or not a correctly implemented QMS would "really" benefit us.

I do know that getting ISO certified doesn't bring customers running in your direction.

 

[AndyN]

Before we implemented ISO, I asked a person in top management, how many customers we didn't gain because we lacked ISO certification. I asked this because management was informing us that gaining ISO certification was a huge step in garnering a larger customer base. The response was:

"only one in the last 5-6 years and they(the potential customer) wouldn't have been a good one because they are now bankrupt."

Now we are certified and have gained only the one "customer".

Due to the poor implementation, I can't say, whether or not a correctly implemented QMS would "really" benefit us.

I do know that getting ISO certified doesn't bring customers running in your direction.

You might wish to consider a couple of other things when thinking about this topic:-

- How many customer won't even consider you without a certificate and you don't know they have work

- that ISO certification isn't the only criterion they are looking for. A purchasing selection is often made on a number of criteria - location, minority owned etc etc. You may not have customers break down your doors, so are you 'attractive' to them in other ways too? I visit many client websites and many are, quite frankly, immature - spelling mistakes, poor layout/design etc. If it looks like it's done on 'the cheap' how does that make a potential buyer feel?

 

[statdoug]

Re: This thread was started in 2002

Bear in mind this conversation (thread) was started 19th April 2002.... Over 8 years ago.

I guess then, that if it is on its way out it is moving slowly. That really puts some perspective on the question.

 

[Marc]

Re: This thread was started in 2002

Bear in mind this conversation (thread) was started 19th April 2002.... Over 8 years ago.

I guess then, that if it is on its way out it is moving slowly. That really puts some perspective on the question.

Yes, it does. When I started this thread in 2002 it was because so many big manufacturing companies went through registration during the 1990's. By 2002 the long tail started.

 

[Stijloor]

Re: This thread was started in 2002

Yes, it does. When I started this thread in 2002 it was because so many big manufacturing companies went through registration during the 1990's. By 2002 the long tail started.

Should the poll be closed? Or start a new one?

Stijloor.