Is ISO 9001 Cresting? Is a rebellion in the works?

[JRKH]

Oh No?????Now I'm so confused?????

Well I sat down here on a Saturday morning, Cup-o-Joe by my side and decide to catch up a bit on the Cove.
Next thing I know its 45 minutes later coffee's cold, posts are hot, and I don't know which end is up.

Ah well such is life.

Seriously though,

So many good posts and points. I fear though that our depth of experience may be undermining some fundimental thruths about our tasks.

1) To improve quality we need everyones attention and respect.
2) This won't happen without top Management commitment.
3) Top management won't commit without a: Solid bottom line improvement potential, or b: some kind of customer requirement.
4) ISO (through customer requirements) provides the tool to force top management to look at quality/business systems from a different (non-fiscal) angle.

I wonder if many here have been dealing with ISO/QMS/TQM etc for so long that they have forgotten what it was like in the early days. The days when Quality meant Inspection, Sampling Plans, and sorting, with maybe a few statistics thrown in.

I am dealing with a company of 85 souls, and a very hands on but non-dictatorial owner. This company has many good things going for it. Discipline is not one of them. Our system is not designed, it has evolved. Now we are seeking registration due to a customer requirement.

The most amazing thing to me is the learning that is taking place. Yes it is an expense - Yes it takes time - Yes it would be nice if we didn't need all of this "evidence". But we are learning! And we are improving! People who I thought would be tough to sell are turning into star pupils, while others who were all for it in the beginning are dragging their feet now that they have to actually do something with it.

All of this painful corporate growth is taking place because one customer has FORCED us to gain certification.

Maybe ISO is cresting -- Maybe the system IS all screwed up -- but as others have mentioned here, where is the alternative. My hope is that we can stay the course, and expand on the strengths of the system, and get more quality courses into the schools etc. ......... until our "business systems thinking" no longer need such requirements.

............And now back to our regularly scheduled Saturday..............(and my flowcharts)

James
:truce:

 

[energy]

Re: Oh No?????Now I'm so confused?????

JRKH said:

I am dealing with a company of 85 souls, and a very hands on but non-dictatorial owner. This company has many good things going for it. Discipline is not one of them. Our system is not designed, it has evolved. Now we are seeking registration due to a customer requirement.

James
:truce:

Oh James,
Take this statement, subtract 40 souls and you have described my company to a tee. Discipline. The deal with a new company president fell through, tainted goods-another story, so our CEO now is physically manning the helm. My ex-boss was the GM and he has made a lateral move to another business unit. (Still in the same building). As part of the new emphasis on ISO, I have to speak to all the VP's and other mucky mucks on Monday, Department Heads on Tuesday, Sales on Wednesday, etc.."You now report directly to me", he told me Friday.

Here's my problem. I already did talk to these people. Several times. They nod their heads, mumble words of agreement and snicker on their way out the door. Some of the shop people have even flipped my off with a big grin. They always tell me that it's a pipe dream because nobody takes this **** seriously except me. In other words, one word from me and they do what they please. We are dead in the water because everybody thinks that it's my job. I have submitted examples of goals and objectives, compliments of the members here in the Cove, audits findings that need responses, requests for training requirements for the people who report to, and all other kinds of requests for help. This was months ago. Not one thing made it back to me in the form of an answer. I went to my boss (GM) and I was told to back off because people are way too busy. So, here we go again. One VP told me that on the day of an outside audit, he would take a vacation day. He wasn't kidding. The President now wants a list of who owes what, just call me King Rat, and at the top of the list is management review and goals and objectives from him. Now that I have support, Life should be easier. Personally, I think it's just another flavor of the week. This is so much fun

 

[energy]

Duh

Marc said:

Knowing you're a schitzophrenic psychotic, energy,
Try Madam Vespa over on Washington avenue.....

I'll get back to you when I find out what these fancy words mean. As for Madam Vespa, I had her when she was good.

 

[JRKH]

Re: Re: Oh No?????Now I'm so confused?????

energy said:

Take this statement, subtract 40 souls and you have described my company to a tee. Discipline. The deal with a new company president fell through, tainted goods-another story, so our CEO now is physically manning the helm. As part of the new emphasis on ISO, I have to speak to all the VP's and other mucky mucks on Monday, Department Heads on Tuesday, Sales on Wednesday, etc.."You now report directly to me", he told me Friday.

Here's my problem. I already did talk to these people. Several times. They nod their heads, mumble words of agreement and snicker on their way out the door. Some of the shop people have even flipped my off with a big grin. They always tell me that it's a pipe dream because nobody takes this **** seriously except me. In other words, one word from me and they do what they please. We are dead in the water because everybody thinks that it's my job. I have submitted examples of goals and objectives, compliments of the members here in the Cove, audits findings that need responses, requests for training requirements for the people who report to, and all other kinds of requests for help. This was months ago. Not one thing made it back to me in the form of an answer. I went to my boss (GM) and I was told to back off because people are way too busy. So, here we go again. One VP told me that on the day of an outside audit, he would take a vacation day. He wasn't kidding. The President now wants a list of who owes what, just call me King Rat, and at the top of the list is management review and goals and objectives from him. Now that I have support, Life should be easier. Personally, I think it's just another flavor of the week. This is so much fun

Energy,
Thank you so much. My job looks so much easier now
One thing I did to help out was bring Marc in. (He is right up the road from us) He has helped us all focus better. Of course in my case the Owner is supportive, if not overly enthusiastic.
I wish you luck, my friend. Hang in there. But do be careful. Missionaries are always harrassed, but sometimes they become Martyrs.

James

 

[barb butrym]

energy....

james is so right, an outside influence (consultant) has a way to snap that all into place........sad as it seems, cause you may know as much.........and sometimes more....BUT because they are percieved as the expert.......people listen....and then believe...I see it all the time. That and being on the hot seat during an audit with someone from the outside tends to wake up the dead....a vote for the contracted internal audits.

 

[energy]

We have one

James/Barb,

Maybe you missed it but we do have a consultant. I don't want to repeat the whole story, but he is also ineffective because he comes in once a month, when we let him, and they think it's a joke. He is treated with respect. You know the song "Smiling Faces"? They can't wait until he leaves so they can back to work. He's been paid in full, is committed to stay with us until the end. Whenever that is. He's done all he can. All he gets now is travel/lodging. But, he took $15K, up front. Believe me, he tried. All the home work assignments that he gave us to do in 4 visits over 6-7 months are unfinished, incomplete or ignored. The next time he comes in, he wants to do a mock Management review. There is no sense in bringing him in now. We are not close to ready. He is also not so eager to come back because he sees it. We have had some disagreements because he thinks that I should be pushing the CEO for action. It's like the joke line, you have to be here and see it to enjoy it. There is nobody enforcing. Me? I'm only the Mgt Rep and QA Manager. Someone who is there only when needed. Trust me. I couldn't put all the stuff that goes on in my posts because you would accuse me of fabricating it. Really. While this job is relatively new, almost 2 years, I have worked with most of these people for about 9 years. I know them like the back of my hand. They need a swift and continuous kick in the A**, to get things done. I've seen the fear put in them in the past. But, collectively the point of origin of the fear is dispatched with sooner or later. Maybe it will be different this time. I'm hoping.
In their defense, these people are all experts in the Water Business and we have plenty of satisfied customers with new Customers coming all the time. ISO is just so much Bull**** to them and it's like an anchor around their neck. We could do very well without it. We have. But, the CEO wants it and wants it fast. He can instill the fear if he has the stomach for it. He has backed off before because it slows down business. Well, I make my presentation tomorrow to all the Top Managers. They will all have a copy of management responsibility and I will ask them who do they think that is? We will discuss the need for goals and objectives, supplied by them. The CEO wants me to be firm and has told be that I have his backing 100%. Why don't I have that warm and fuzzy feeling? I've been around too long to get excited. Tomorrow is just another Monday. My guess is that they will want me to work every Saturday and Sunday until we get certified. Not them, though. Guess what? Not me either. I can leave tomorrow, if I have to. I won't like it, but I can. bonk:

 

[Mike S.]

Marc said:

Knowing you're a schitzophrenic psychotic, energy, we expect multiple personalities.
__________
"I'll just have to try harder to obtain a happy medium."
__________
Try Madam Vespa over on Washington avenue.....

Just what I needed to kick-start a dreary Monday morning -- a very bad pun. Thanks Marc!

Mike S.

 

[Michael T]

Just a little though...

energy said:
Here's my problem. I already did talk to these people. Several times. They nod their heads, mumble words of agreement and snicker on their way out the door.

Energy - that pretty much sums up the definition of insanity....

Doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results.

Man - I don't envy you!!

This really typifies my distaste for ISO. Head honcho wants it... not because it can do anything to improve operations, quality, customer satisfaction, employee satisfaction, etc., but because someone (perhaps a large customer) has said you should have it. Sheeeeez...

 

[Mike S.]

Re: We have one

energy said:

The CEO wants me to be firm and has told be that I have his backing 100%. Why don't I have that warm and fuzzy feeling? I've been around too long to get excited. Tomorrow is just another Monday. My guess is that they will want me to work every Saturday and Sunday until we get certified. Not them, though. Guess what? Not me either. I can leave tomorrow, if I have to. I won't like it, but I can.

_____________________
Holy Moley, Energy!!! In your last few posts it sounded like you were summarizing parts of the last few years of my career!!! Man, in some places the similarities are uncanny, except for the part about being able to leave tomorrow -- that'd be a real problem for me financially!

The last time we at my last company were to "get certified" the President (my boss) gave "us" 6 months to get 9001 certified, with no outside help (and before I knew of the Cove). There was lots of rah-rah, lots of speeches, etc. from the top. I was "empowered" to make it happen. I got an ISO team together and the Prez attended the first meeting -- more speeches, more rah-rah. Wonderful so far. Goals were set, responsibilities set, assignments given. Oops. Things went downhill from there when, as you say, people realized they had to do WORK for this to happen. So I spent 45 hours a week at work and 5-10 at home on the weekend working on the level 1 and 2 docs. People stopped attending the ISO meetings -- they had to concentrate on production you know. I trudged on, trying to do their work for them and just get their sign-off, but the writing on the wall was clear to me. Soon that President was -- shall we say -- allowed to step down to consulting then out the door as his replacement came on board. The cert effort died a slow death. Soon the same old cycle started again with the new Prez -- eerily the same conversations, same rah-rah, same speeches, same start-off with gusto, same eventual result. We became maybe 70% compliant with all the effort I could give and occasional grudging help from outside QA. The Prez told all our customers, of course, that we were fully compliant. Got lucky on a few customer audits.

The company I'm with now... we won't even go there. Same business, same attitudes. I'll stop there - I hate to get too depressed on a Monday morning. You do what you can, try to effect little changes here and there when the mood is right, and hope someday for a "leader" who will at least walk his talk -- whatever the talk is -- just walk it. I can dream, right?

Hang in there, Energy, you aren't alone by a long shot! Good luck - maybe this time is the one.

And, by the way, son't get too soft on us -- your "edginess" makes for nice variety. JMO.

Mike S.

 

[energy]

Re: Re: We have one

Mike S. said:

1. Man, in some places the similarities are uncanny, except for the part about being able to leave tomorrow -- that'd be a real problem for me financially!


2. And, by the way, son't get too soft on us -- your "edginess" makes for nice variety. JMO.

Mike S.

1. I said I wouldn't like it. it would be a financial hit for me, too. More like a little less than a lateral move, but I hated it there. I like it here. If it weren't for this friggin ISO crap, I'd be enjoying it.

2. My "edginess" is not acceptable behavior. It may be considered "snippish", coupled with "biteyness" Watch!